Penn Station New York arrest

[Village Idiot]

Well, here in TX, whatever they call the health-department guys who check dentists' offices, they're specifically treated as law-enforcement for the purposes of being able to carry weapons. (Yes, specifically the ones inspecting dental facilities. I don't recall if any other specializations are in there, but it seemed odd for that one to be mentioned in particular.) OTOH, I've got a friend that's a dentist, and she's never seen one carrying during an inspection.

Then again, here in TX, if they're called "police," odds are they're commissioned law enforcement, and armed. The state is pretty picky about any private security being misidentified as law enforcement. Private security may be commissioned and armed, but they're a lot more expensive than the unarmed ones. Armed security officers do generally carry roughly the same duty belt load as regular law enforcement unless the client specifies otherwise.

Well, ever since the Texas Dental Drill Massacres, things just haven't quite been the same.

I'm going to go back and read the rest of the thread now...

 

[abraxas]

Timothy McVeigh?

 

[Village Idiot]

Profiling works though. It's just a fact of police work. Sometimes though, profiling leads to bad situations.

Fact: Police regularly stopped and harassed people with modified vehicles that use to cruise the 10-15mi dual highway in a town about 30 minutes from me. When they stepped up a bigger presence and cracked down on these people (yes, I like my toys), the fights, loitering, and vandalism at several places in the area went down drastically, not to mention the amount of people "street racing" through a populated area. Profiling certain individuals with a certain taste in modifying vehicles reduced crime.

Fact: Police/Security have been stopping and harassing photographers even when they're not breaking any laws because of the whole big stigma of photographers are terrorist mastermings here to document sites and plan attacks on us. Many, many, many bad arrests have been made. The risk of terrorism has not dropped dramatically and many people are still dying from bombings around the world even though Joe Dirt was arrested for taking pictures of a courthouse in Nebraska last week.

Fact: Profiling happens.

Opinion: I agree that racial profiling is bad.

Fact: Technically there's three races on Earth. Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negroid. Those are the three scientifically defined races.

Opinion: So take 1/3 of the world's population (theoretically) and target them for doing whatever it is you think that they all do and you can talk about racial profiling.

Anyways, profiling happens. If it didn't, then there wouldn't be law enforcement jobs for people called "criminal profilers". Sometimes the results can be good, sometimes they can be bad.

It's when people start profiling based on stereotypes born of ignorance and fear that is can lead to harassment, murder, war, etc...

 

[Village Idiot]

Timothy McVeigh?

Been said.

IRA?

Brits living in America that were trying to overthrow the rule of there benevolent leaders in the colonies so that they could live free of there tyranny and oppression?

The Japanese cianide subway attacks?

The murderous indians that were trying to take away the land that was orignally claimed for America as one nation under God?

etc...

 

[stsinner]

And how is 9/11 applicable? Any definite proof that racial profiling would have prevented 9/11?

Really? You really asked that? The fact is that 9/11 changed the world. We had no clue before that act of terrorism that radical Islamists wanted us dead to that degree. We knew from the Olympics hostage situation, the bombing of the Marine barracks and many other events that they were capable of terrorist acts overseas, but that terror had never visited our shores. You think that anyone cared about people photographing trains before 9/11?

How is it applicable? You act like I'm some kind of lunatic. I GUARANTEE you that any Muslim taking flight lessons in America today will have a file with Homeland Security. You can bet on that.

You say I can't get it through my head like I'm thick or something.. Feels good to not think, doesn't it? Unfortunately for you, and others like you who refuse to deal in reality, the person that we're afraid to have taking pictures that has resulted in these stupid rules and laws has a discernible look. You know it, and I know it. Whether you're willing to admit it or not is another matter. Yes, there will always be terrorists of other ethnicities, but there is one type of person that we would do a double-take at if we saw them photographing trains..or buildings....or popular tourist spots.. Not the 30's white dude with the Red Sox cap on and $1000 camera..

 

[usayit]

Wow .. the nonsense dribble is flowing really well now...

Radical Islamists have been targeting the U.S. for decades. Terrorism was an issue before 9/11 and the problems did not start on that terrible day. Muslim is not a race. Terrorism has visited our shores. Timothy McVeigh was a 30s something white dude with a bomb.

Your reaction means we need to make efforts to secure against terrorism. I agree. Not a single thing you said is definite proof that racial profiling is effective in anyway. Yet the historical evidence that singling out along racial lines is damaging is ignored.

Just to reiterate Gryphs post:

"Racial profiling is defined as any police-initiated action that relies on the race, ethnicity, or national origin rather than the behavior of an individual or information that leads the police to a particular individual who has been identified as being, or having been, engaged in criminal activity. Police may not use racial or ethnic stereotypes as factors in selecting whom to stop-and-search, and police may use race or ethnicity to determine whether a person matches a specific description of a particular suspect."

The part I bolded is very important. "may use race ethnicity to determine whether a person matches a specific description of a particular suspect". I understand profiling is a fact in police work... it is not what I am referring to. (sts tried to change it earlier in the thread)

You still haven't answered why profiling a photographer is such an unacceptable act yet profiling a person by race is acceptable.

 

[usayit]

Forgot to mention...
https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/IFR_Alien_Pilot.pdf

Please point out the lines that specifically state that people of a certain race or creed are required to register in order to take flying lessons.

 

[Village Idiot]

Really? You really asked that? The fact is that 9/11 changed the world. We had no clue before that act of terrorism that radical Islamists wanted us dead to that degree.

I will say this. That 9/11 changed the world because the world allowed the events, new/media, and the administration to change it. They bombed the World Trade Centers before. They were trying to take down the whole place with everyone in it. If they would have been successful, then there would have been a lot more dead people.

They just accomplished what they wanted on 9/11. One top security adviser wrote and article about photography and terrorism. He stated that a lot of the time there's no reason for the threat level system. I believe the point he was making is that it was doing more harm than good for the media to drill into our heads that the hi jackers were muslim. Just like after Pearl Harbor with the round up of the Japanese citizens. Muslims who had no affiliation with any sort of terrorist activities were being regarded as possible threats. People were vandalising their properties and disrupting their way of life.

Ordinary non Muslim US citizens were basically becoming terrorist in their own rights. This wasn't on a huge scale, but it was because of profiling based on the fact that the media was basically telling us to watch out for people dressed in robes, turbans, etc... That they could blow us up with the dynamite they had strapped to their chest at anytime.

So in regards to what you're saying is that we should keep a close eye on people of Middle Eastern descent until the whole terrorism thing dies down and a new threat arises. Like the economy? Hitler did blame the Jews for Germany's Economy. See where that got him? :er:

 

[stsinner]

You still haven't answered why profiling a photographer is such an unacceptable act yet profiling a person by race is acceptable.

A radical element of photographers don't want us dead. Conversely, a radical element of Islam does.

Notice, now, that I haven't derided Muslims or Islamists in any way, because I don't believe that they're all terrorists, nor do I wish them ill in any way. I know that the vast majority of Muslims are fine, upstanding people. But I also know that a very small percentage of them is determined to kill us infidels.

When I was in the Army in basic training, they practiced what is called, "blanket punishments," meaning that when one guy messed up, we all did push-ups. Once I got out of bt and got to my first duty station, the mess-ups were addressed on an individual and case-by-case basis.

That is my point here-maybe racial profiling was the wrong term, but I don't think that a blanket ban on photography by Amtrak is appropriate. I think that every individual should be assessed on an individual basis and just scrutinized for anything suspicious. If there is no reason to suspect the photographer has ulterior motives, let him shoot away. Trains are very fascinating, as they're rare sights for many people. I suppose that what's deemed suspicious might be offensive to many people, so I guess Amtrak would have to come up with a set of standards to prevent unfairness.

 

[Village Idiot]

Forgot to mention...
https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/IFR_Alien_Pilot.pdf

Please point out the lines that specifically state that people of a certain race or creed are required to register in order to take flying lessons.

What he was saying is that the DHS will know about it. Look at some of the recent stories on the no fly list. There's people on the FAA's no fly list that are just rediculous. One is a 4 year old boy. Another is a pilot that was at risk for losing his job unless he was removed. All of this because they were singled out because of their name. Some are just people that were suspected to have connections to terrorist, others were because their religion was Islam.

Don't think for the second the government isn't doing a ton of racial profiling in the current political climate. You have no idea who the FBI and CIA are watching.

 

[inTempus]

This is why we should be racially profiling. We can't just ban all photography of anything that could be a terrorist target. That's just not freedom. A little common sense on the part of the authorities would go a long way..

Would racial profiling detain and question this guy?

He's a Musllim.

How about this guy?

He's a Muslim.

All racial profiling does is harass people of color.

 

[inTempus]

Really? You really asked that? The fact is that 9/11 changed the world. We had no clue before that act of terrorism that radical Islamists wanted us dead to that degree.

Not true, we wer bombed by Muslim radicals in 1993 and the target was the same, the World Trade Center.

Why 911 happened is because the Clinton Administration did absolutely nothing to prevent it. He opted to prosecute the actors in court and not treat the bombing as an act of war. He didn't go after the ring leader even though he had actionable intelligence against Bin Laden.

The FBI knew about Ata being enrolled in flight school and they had other reports about members of his cell... yet they did nothing.

 

[stsinner]

Not true, we wer bombed by Muslim radicals in 1993 and the target was the same, the World Trade Center.

Why 911 happened is because the Clinton Administration did absolutely nothing to prevent it. He opted to prosecute the actors in court and not treat the bombing as an act of war. He didn't go after the ring leader even though he had actionable intelligence against Bin Laden.

The FBI knew about Ata being enrolled in flight school and they had other reports about members of his cell... yet they did nothing.

I know the WTC was bombed before, but it was a rather small incident compared to 9/11, so people didn't really take it seriously. It was also one vehicle, compared to the grand scale of 9/11 with 4 planes loaded with passengers. My point was that terrorists were reasonably unsuccessful at carrying out any act successfully on our soil until 9/11, so our guard was down.. Sadly, it's down again because of our collective short term memory. I also don't remember if there was all the chanting in the streets overseas and cheering after that first attack.. I first learned how hysterical the Muslim world is and filled with anti-U.S. hatred after 9/11 when they showed the throngs of supporters jumping and chanting and burning America flags and burning effigies of President Bush and celebrating the death of 3000 innocent American civilians.. I think that opened a lot of peoples' eyes that weren't opened before 9/11, even with the hostage situation during the Olympics, the bombing of the Marine barracks, the first attack on the WTC, and all the other singular, rather small attacks.

I'm sure the FBI did know about Ata being in flight school, even more disturbing is that I learned in some documentary I was watching that one of the terrorists told his instructor that he wasn't interested in learning to actually land the plane. How he ever got near a plane again is a mystery.. I think we would have a chat with him today in this climate.

 

[inTempus]

I know the WTC was bombed before, but it was a rather small incident compared to 9/11, so people didn't really take it seriously. It was also one vehicle, compared to the grand scale of 9/11 with 4 planes loaded with passengers. My point was that terrorists were reasonably unsuccessful at carrying out any act successfully on our soil until 9/11, so our guard was down..

It was a huge event, I remember watching it live on television. I had just gotten out of the military where I was involved in counter terrorism work (worked with nuclear weapons). When I saw the first video clips on the television in the restaurant I was dining in, I recall saying "that's a terrorist attack" and no one believing it was true.

The same thing happened on 9/11. I was driving to the office when the news that a plane had hit the Trade Centers came over the air. I immediately called the office President and told him to let people go home that I was certain we were under attack. He asked me if I was serious. He said it was probably an accident and I assured him a commercial jet would never accidentally hit the World Trade Center. A short while later the second plane hit, I called back and before I said a word he said, "You're right I'm sending people home now". Our offices are just a couple of blocks from the Sears Tower in Chicago.

To some the events of 1993 may not have seemed significant, but to me they were very significant. I knew that those buildings were now targets and the whacko's who bombed them would be back to finish their job... and I was right again.

But I couldn't have been the only other person that felt that way. I know men I served with that were still active in the military felt that it was just the beginning (in 1993). That tells me others in the anti-terrorist/intelligence community had to have similar concerns in Washington.... so why did the Clinton Administration do nothing?

Now, while I'm opposed to "racial profiling" I am not against "profiling". The FBI does it when looking for a killer, we all do it when we're looking for threats in our daily lives. It doesn't have to be about skin color, there's much more telling traits/behaviors that might telegraph to those watching that someone might be up to something nefarious. The Israelis have been profiling for decades and it's been almost 100% effective in stopping airliner bombings and hijackings with flights originating from their airports.

 

[stsinner]

It was a huge event,

Okay, it was a big event in that we don't have terrorists attacks in America, for the most part. But it was also a failed mission, and that's what I meant. It was a failed terrorist attack, but a terrorist attack, nonetheless.

So what do you think we have in store for us now? I'm afraid it will be nuclear next time.

You're right about the Israelis in that they don't mess around. They shoot to kill, and they don't ask twice. I was lucky enough to work with Israelis from IAI (Israeli Aircraft Industries) while in the Army, because they made the planes I worked on and flew, the Hunter and Pioneer UAV's. They are serious people and tough as hell.

Since I shot expert at the range every time, I was one of 5 people selected to go on a shoot with the French, Germans and Israelis in Germany. We shot the FAMAS assault rifle, the Uzi and a 9mm pistol, as well as the M16 A-1. The FAMAS was sweet-I got standing first-shot kills as soon as I picked it up with no zeroing. I was impressed, and it also has a built-in bi-pod.

Here I am firing the uzi:

Here's the FAMAS: