photography as a career, or as a backup

[naptime]

I THINK this is the right section for this...

My 16 year old daughter is getting her first SLR for Christmas. I've posted in other areas that we are starting with black and white film. For a host of reasons. That can be found elsewhere on the board though..

She has been gearing up for a career in the arts for quite some time now. Her classes in school have been arranged so that she can take design her junior year and photography her senior year. (She’s a sophomore now)

she wants to be a photographer or a graphic artist / graphic designer.

She knows that at all of the art school she is considering, they all require at least a semester of photography if you are going for design anyway. And if you are going for photography, you have to take classes for Photoshop. So whichever path she goes down, she'll still have training in both.


Anyway she's got a few years yet. And in a few weeks she'll have her first camera in hand to really start exploring this field..

But last night she started a discussion with me... and I really had no answers for her...


she asked... which do you think is better for my future.. Photography, with design as a hobby. Or design, with photography as a hobby. Basically, which offers more opportunities for employment and for money.

And.. I didn't have an answer for her... we discussed it for a while. thinking of people we know in both industries and how they are doing.

we discussed myself, and the many careers I have had.. I started out life as a graphic designer and wanted to be a professional silk screen printer, and literally, two weeks before going off to the Cleveland institute of art, with a full scholarship.... I bailed, and joined the army. I became a ranger, fought in two wars, and finally ended my career as a drill sergeant. while in the army, I went to night school, and received my bachelors in computer science. when I came home from the service I opened a computer store, and then sold it to work for ibm. I left ibm and of all things, opened a pizza shop. I sold my pizza shop and now I own a silk screen t shirt printing business. (which is what I started off to do 20 some years ago)

so we looked at my life as an example... I am doing now, what I wanted to do 20 years ago. I don’t feel I wasted the last 20 years. I have certainly done a lot and am very proud of my history and my education, etc... but, my college degree does nothing for me, printing t-shirts out in my shop. yet, I am finally doing something I love to do, and have always wanted to do. and supporting my family at the same time, while bringing in more money than I did working for ibm or while owning a pizza shop.


she is hoping to eliminate that 20 year gap. how much better could I be at screen printing, if I’d done it for 20 years. how big could my shop be. how large could my client base be. instead I am small time since we are so new.

she doesn’t want to go to college, and spend 5 or 10 years trying to get by, when a different path would have been the better choice...


I know that most may think that photography will be the #1 answer here, since it's a photography forum. but really what I am looking for is... would you do it again... are you happy in your career.. does it provide for you.. or would you recommend photography as a hobby.


she is also a violinist. a very accomplished violinist. she is in three orchestras and two quartets. she has traveled to Japan and south Korea for concert tours. this summer she will go to Peru for a concert tour. she has gotten perfect scores in the state solo competition for 4 years in a row. she's very good. (I’m a proud dad can ya tell)

she wanted to be a music school teacher...

her private instructor, two different orchestra directors, and her music advisor for one of her orchestras.. ALL told her DO NOT choose music as a career. not as a put down on her skill, but as a warning that music as a career or teaching music as a career, is not very financially fulfilling. and is hard to be employed. her private teacher just gets by. but she also works a part time job as a sub. and her husband is a nurse. they make ends meet. her orchestra directors both have full time jobs, one, is not in the music field, and the other is a high school music teacher.

they all recommended that she certainly continue with music. and perhaps become a private teacher herself if that’s what she likes.. but they all recommended staying with a different main career.


sorry for the long winded post, but that's me.. lol..

thanks everyone for any input.

jay

 

[Rephargotohp]

Graphic Design Hands down..and that isn't to discourage her..But Yeah Hands Down. There are so many avenues that could take her.

 

[MLeeK]

Design (probably digital graphic design if it were my call-it's an ever growing field) as a primary focus in school, photography second-or even third. She can always land a good job in graphic design working for so many different kinds of companies it's amazing. It's a solid skill to fall back on or even open your own design studio, design for photographers... There are just so many things.

Business in there somewhere!!!! If she does want to be a photographer she can get the education with the camera almost anywhere these days. A few GOOD, basic photography classes will launch her into the ability to learn the rest either from other photographers as mentors, books, seminars, webinars... As long as she has good basic camera skills.

Most photographers, however are self employed. As well as many private tutors, graphic designers... Which makes these fields more about running a business than anything else. A photographer with mediocre skills can succeed wildly if they are a good business person. An outstanding photographer can fail miserably if they have no business sense.

 

[CCericola]

Just a few things to think about:

As you know the graphic design field is VERY saturated. The same people with 5+ years of experience are vying for the same jobs as those fresh out of college. Without a degree she will be edged out by people who have better credentials. Despite what some people say it is NOT all about the portfolio.

The reality of design is it is a dog eat dog career and backstabbing to get recognized by the art/creative director can be brutal especially in advertizing. Also, if she does go into graphic design you are going to have to leave any "but I'm an ARTIST" attitudes at the door. At the end of the day, if a client wants pink comic sans on their brochure, you give them pink, comic sans.

Digital design and web design education is going to have to be a must. Today's designer is expected to wear many hats. The days of "I'm just a print designer" are pretty much over.

Intern, intern, intern, While she is is college whether it be design or photography it can be all about who you know. Intern as much as possible even freshmen year where you might not get college credit. Trust me, it is the best thing I ever did. I have never been without some kind of income whether it be a full time job for Freelance projects given to me by contacts and friends from Internships.

Things don't always go the way we plan in high school. You know that. My father has a degree from Juliard but now works for the Dept of Defense as a programmer. Anything can happen.

 

[imagemaker46]

It's a tough choice to make at a young age, I have three boys that wrestled with which avenues of career to follow, and none of them went way I did, which is photography. One is working full time retail and doing very well, the other two start university next year.

The downside to going into the arts is that as the world has changed in the past 10 years so has the market for photography/graphics, more is being done in small home based operations, companies that used to have in-house graphics have done away with them, and the market has become over-saturated with highly skilled unemployed photographers and graphic designers. I believe that photography will change again in the next few years and video will become the "new" photography, as cameras get better frame grabbing will be all that is required, it has been slowly changing in that direction for years now. I would suggest that your daughter look into the video side as well.

She sounds like a very talented girl, I would hope that she continues with music, it too would work within the video field. Good luck with it all, difficult choices in such changing times

 

[Big Mike]

Business in there somewhere!!!! If she does want to be a photographer she can get the education with the camera almost anywhere these days. A few GOOD, basic photography classes will launch her into the ability to learn the rest either from other photographers as mentors, books, seminars, webinars... As long as she has good basic camera skills.

Most photographers, however are self employed. As well as many private tutors, graphic designers... Which makes these fields more about running a business than anything else. A photographer with mediocre skills can succeed wildly if they are a good business person. An outstanding photographer can fail miserably if they have no business sense.

This is pretty much what I was going to say.

With most of the options/interests that you mentioned, she could easily be in business for herself...and if that's the case, good business skills may be more important that good photography/design skills. So if she has a good base of business knowledge, she would likely be more free to pursue the path that calls to her. And as a business owner yourself, you could help her along the way, and she would probably be able to help your business as well.

And, in the (hopefully unlikely) scenario that an artistic career path isn't for her...a business education would be something to fall back on.

 

[tirediron]

Photographer, designer, tomato, tomato... let her grow up, develop and see how interests mature. I don't think one is better than the other. There are very successful workers in both fields, but there are even more unsuccesful ones and regardless of which route she goes, it's going to be a hard row to hoe. Best of luck to her.

 

[brian_f2.8]

Become an art/tech teacher and enjoy side work.

 

[Todd_Reichman]

As a professional photographer and a former college career-planning-mentor I would highly suggest that she follow whatever she is most interested in and be as specific and specialized as possible. Very few of us end up doing exactly what we majored in. The few that do tend to be the lucky ones that find their calling early (which we can't plan on knowing yet) and those that are very specific and marketable. My experience helping college seniors find jobs was that any combination of specialty and field made a student infinitely more attractive as a candidate than a generalist. A double-major is huge for this.

The more disparate the double-major the better. For instance, an art and finance double major will find a job fast. There are artistic-based companies that need money-people and financial companies that need aesthetically minded people. Aligning a skill with an industry makes it so much easier to stand out and be perfect for a particular company. That's my best advice from inside the trenches.

- trr

…a Man to Fish…

 

[naptime]

thanks for all the input everyone..

the general consensus is pretty much how i feel as well. and her to the extent that a 16 year old can.

she's much more mature than many kids her age. and while i may be just a proud dad, i like to think some of it has to do with my back in the military, and owning my own businesses. she has a good work ethic, a strong desire to lead and to learn.

ultimately, she wants to have her own business, just as myself. but she wants to get real world experience before hand. if that makes sense.

college is a definitely. as far as graphics are concerned... she likes digital graphic design.. designing logo's, helping me to layout t-shirt designs, she loves editing photo's, and of course, she likes taking photos. she doesn't want to be tied to one skill, nor would i want her to. i completely understand what you guys are saying in regards to diversification. and yes, i have discussed with her the importance of business classes as well. and we have made sure that the colleges she is looking at, offer everything that she needs, ie: design, photography, business, math, art history, etc...

that's part of the reason she is wishy washy on what kind of graphics arts she wants to purse, and what type of photography she wants to pursue. she knows she wants to go in this direction. but when asked by a friend, that is a photography instructor at the university, whether she wanted to shoot landscape, or portraits, or animals, etc... she said, "i don't know yet. i don't even have my camera yet. i want to shoot it all." his response.. "you HAVE to know, they are all different forms of photography, and you have to make up your mind. you can't just shoot everything."

i disagree. i understand where he is coming from with that statement... but, as a sophomore in high school, who is just sparking her interest in photography, i think it's entirely unrealistic to expect her to narrow down exactly what type of photographer she wants to be. before even learning what aperture, f-stop, and ISO mean.

most people we talk to, that are not in the industries, ie: friends and family, are all shocked that i don't want her to skip college and just take over the reigns for me. well, she has worked for me since she was 11. she started out in the pizza shop, and when we sold it, she was eager to help out in the silk screen shop. she loves everything we do out in the shop. and while i would love for my daughter to run the business with me, and i truly love the idea of an in-house graphics artist.... i want her to do what SHE wants to do. not what i want her to do.

sure i guide her, and help her make decisions.. but ultimately, they are her decision. i have always detested parents that force their kids down a specific path. that's just not me. can't do it. she needs to find her own pat. i can simply help her understand the many that are in front of her.

at this point i'm rambling. so i'll shut up..

thanks everyone for your input. i look forward to Christmas so her and i can start shooting and posting our pics.

 

[bazooka]

Keep in mind I do this as a hobby, but when I started two years ago, I wanted to shoot landscape. But as I actually started learning about photography, that desire broadened quite a bit. I never though I would enjoy doing portraits, but I do now. I think that once she starts learning about photography and experiments with different subject matter, she'll find things that she like to shoot, and things that she doesn't. She's a Sophomore in high school. There are Sophomore's in college that don't know what they want to do yet....

 

[naptime]

thank you. exactly why i was furious with my friend.

how can she know what she wants to study.. when she doesnt even have a camera yet.

the extent of her photo taking is with our point & shoot on vacation...

wait... forgive me... yes she has taken some of those... but the MAJORITY of her photo taking, has been in the bathroom mirror with her cell phone, for facebook. :er: i will never understand the fascination with the facebook duckface self portrait!!

 

[skieur]

In a period of difficulty getting a job, it is useful to have more than one skill and more than one set of creditionals. A classical university degree provides literacy, research, and writing skills which are important in many companies and organizations. Media and communication skills are inter-related so literacy and technical skills are both important for success.

skieur

 

[Josh66]

I am neither a pro photographer or designer, so take that into account - but I would say design probably has the better paycheck starting out. Once you're established? I don't know.

I am finally doing something I love to do, and have always wanted to do. and supporting my family at the same time, while bringing in more money than I did working for ibm or while owning a pizza shop.

That's pretty cool. I wonder though, if you would still be able to say that without all of the experiences that led up to it... Just something to think about.

 

[naptime]

I am neither a pro photographer or designer, so take that into account - but I would say design probably has the better paycheck starting out. Once you're established? I don't know.

I am finally doing something I love to do, and have always wanted to do. and supporting my family at the same time, while bringing in more money than I did working for ibm or while owning a pizza shop.

That's pretty cool. I wonder though, if you would still be able to say that without all of the experiences that led up to it... Just something to think about.

i doubt it.

i firmly believe i NEEDED every experience i have had, to put me where i am today.

and every path i have gone down, has given me some valuable experience that has been used on the next path.