photography as a career, or as a backup

[vfotog]

thank you. exactly why i was furious with my friend.

how can she know what she wants to study.. when she doesnt even have a camera yet.

the extent of her photo taking is with our point & shoot on vacation...

wait... forgive me... yes she has taken some of those... but the MAJORITY of her photo taking, has been in the bathroom mirror with her cell phone, for facebook. :er: i will never understand the fascination with the facebook duckface self portrait!!

Photographer, artist and mother here.... I REALLY think you are both jumping the gun to be talking about photography as a career when she hasn't even been doing any shooting yet. Until she's spent some substantial time doing it, you don't know whether she will really enjoy it or even have an aptitude for it. It's not like you pick up a camera and you are instantly have professional skills. Your friend is not off the mark. Different types of photography involved different skill sets, and many of them don't overlap. Product photography is very different from wedding photography which is different from sports photography, etc etc How you find work in those areas varies too, so it's good to know where her interest really is and what she is suited for. Even talking about photography as a career before having any photo experience or skills is definitely putting the cart before the horse. Photography as a career is changing and becoming less profitable; it's something that you really have to love if you take it up because it's just not the profession to take up if you want to make a lot of money. With cameras so smart, everyone is a photographer and the demand is way down. If it's not her passion, it's probably not the best choice. But since she's not even shooting yet, she needs to learn to crawl, then stand, then walk before she can run. Graphic design is more practical, but she has to love computers. Does she? I do agree that some business classes will be beneficial. But doing well in high school will get her into a good college, and that is everything. With any of the arts, you have to have the passion because it's just not the most practical and financially rewarding of fields, no matter your specialty. As for music, even that is like photography or design. What is it that she actually likes about music? Is it the performing? or something else? The most practical area would be to go into music education but music is so highly competitive and education is too. Education budgets have been slashed, but people that love to teach find it rewarding in ways other than monetarily. You're not likely to have any answers to these questions until she actually gets her feet wet in these skills and finds what she actually enjoys and has an aptitude for; if she doesn't love it and have a real passion for it, it's hard to imagine having the drive to succeed against pretty serious odds.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

So many students look at going into saturated markets. Art and design, eh? Have her take a jewelry/metals class. There is great money to be had as a jeweler, especially with design, CAD, and even photography skills. There are a ton of bench workers (read: lackies with no design or creative talent), but creative jewelers are hard to find.

I was going the graphic design route, and took one metals class and I was hooked. 25 years later, I have my own successful business, and never took a business class.

College is for experimentation, and exploration. Food for though.

 

[naptime]

thank you. exactly why i was furious with my friend.

how can she know what she wants to study.. when she doesnt even have a camera yet.

the extent of her photo taking is with our point & shoot on vacation...

wait... forgive me... yes she has taken some of those... but the MAJORITY of her photo taking, has been in the bathroom mirror with her cell phone, for facebook. :er: i will never understand the fascination with the facebook duckface self portrait!!

Photographer, artist and mother here.... I REALLY think you are both jumping the gun to be talking about photography as a career when she hasn't even been doing any shooting yet. Until she's spent some substantial time doing it, you don't know whether she will really enjoy it or even have an aptitude for it. It's not like you pick up a camera and you are instantly have professional skills. Your friend is not off the mark. Different types of photography involved different skill sets, and many of them don't overlap. Product photography is very different from wedding photography which is different from sports photography, etc etc How you find work in those areas varies too, so it's good to know where her interest really is and what she is suited for. Even talking about photography as a career before having any photo experience or skills is definitely putting the cart before the horse. Photography as a career is changing and becoming less profitable; it's something that you really have to love if you take it up because it's just not the profession to take up if you want to make a lot of money. With cameras so smart, everyone is a photographer and the demand is way down. If it's not her passion, it's probably not the best choice. But since she's not even shooting yet, she needs to learn to crawl, then stand, then walk before she can run. Graphic design is more practical, but she has to love computers. Does she? I do agree that some business classes will be beneficial. But doing well in high school will get her into a good college, and that is everything. With any of the arts, you have to have the passion because it's just not the most practical and financially rewarding of fields, no matter your specialty. As for music, even that is like photography or design. What is it that she actually likes about music? Is it the performing? or something else? The most practical area would be to go into music education but music is so highly competitive and education is too. Education budgets have been slashed, but people that love to teach find it rewarding in ways other than monetarily. You're not likely to have any answers to these questions until she actually gets her feet wet in these skills and finds what she actually enjoys and has an aptitude for; if she doesn't love it and have a real passion for it, it's hard to imagine having the drive to succeed against pretty serious odds.

maybe you missed some of my other posts ?

we are not jumping the gun. she IS going to art school. yes she is tech savvy. and she has been taking art classes both in public school, and privately, for about 3 years now. she has gone to several different art schools, she knows she is going to art school.

we also went with film cameras for our beginning cameras, because we dont know if she will be interested in photography once she starts learnign all there is to know about shooting. it may completley turn her off and she wont be interested (i've talked about that at length in some different threads) the film cameras are to get her feet wet and see if she wants to continue. if she does, then i will spend the money to switch to digital.

but TALKING about it now... yes, its abosolutely the right time to talk about it. she HAS to talk about it now, so that next years classes are tailored to what she wants to do moving forward. that can change. but it still needs to be discussed.

the fact is, she is going to art school. in those art schools she will be REQUIRED to take at least a semester of photography.


our discussion the other night, nor the discussion here is about whether or not she will become a professional photographer.. it was about, which careers offer better stability.

if i sound defensive i apologize. it's not my attention.. i think we actually agree on most everything you said.. but i disagree that it shouldn't be talked about yet. she has to take photography whether she wants to or not. just like she has to take math. and art history. and she has an interest in photography anyway.

she doesnt have the option to wait until the end of the school year to determine what to do next year.. she has to discuss next years classes with her counselor NOW.

we aren't planning the next 10 years yet.... just looking at all of the available OPTIONS

thank you for your input. it IS appreciated.

btw: school. check. she's in all honors classes. dean's list. class vice president.

music... i couldnt really nail down what she loves so much about music. she loves to play. she loves to perform. she loves to practice. she loves the opportunities it has brought her, and the travels it has taken her on. during the christmas season, and in the summer months, when orchestras are on break, she, and three other friends contact area nursing homes and hospices, and they go perform hour long mini concerts for the residents. at the hospices, occasionally they go room to room for the famlies that request it.

she had thought about a career as a music teacher last year.. then everyone thats a role model in music for her, suggested it was not a good idea as a primary career. and then public schooling started getting major budget cuts.. next year, it looks like NONE of our public schools will have ANY music classes of any sort. that was the nail in the coffin. but she still has aspirations of private teaching like her teacher does, from her home, on her days off.

 

[naptime]

So many students look at going into saturated markets. Art and design, eh? Have her take a jewelry/metals class. There is great money to be had as a jeweler, especially with design, CAD, and even photography skills. There are a ton of bench workers (read: lackies with no design or creative talent), but creative jewelers are hard to find.

I was going the graphic design route, and took one metals class and I was hooked. 25 years later, I have my own successful business, and never took a business class.

College is for experimentation, and exploration. Food for though.

not even offered

the closest we have to a metals class is automotive repair.

they even took away the electronics technician class and the culinary arts class.

 

[nickzou]

As you know the graphic design field is VERY saturated. The same people with 5+ years of experience are vying for the same jobs as those fresh out of college. Without a degree she will be edged out by people who have better credentials. Despite what some people say it is NOT all about the portfolio.

This this this! I see a lot of posts here complaining about people buying their first DSLRs and becoming "pros" overnight. How much easier (or harder to truly break into the business) do you guys think Graphic Design is? Torrent Photoshop, Illustrator, and InDesign, browse through a few magazines to see what the current trends are, learn the rules (and there are some pretty strict rules, which actually makes it pretty easy), post an ad on kijiji and boom you're in business. And ANYONE can do this. I've been thinking about photography as a career for about a year now, but I haven't really gotten down to it. I mean I've been putting together my costs and setting up my business plan and working with other pros to see what it is like. None of that experience is really necessary in Graphic Design, it's okay to just jump head in, with little experience, basically no-start up and turn up profit. You may make mistakes along the way due to inexperience in the business aspect but with little to no start up cost, you can afford to make mistakes.

Obviously, if they are serious about it, the start up costs start to build, actually licensing the software and renting an office and stuff like that, but at that point you can have a pretty nice professional portfolio with several local companies who LOVE you. And you may already have a decent wad of cash from the early days at this point. With my start up costs for a photography business estimated at around 10 000 dollars... I can't just decide to start being a "pro" photographer tomorrow. But anyone who decides to download some design software can, regardless of skill.

And the thing about design is that if you're willing to in a little bit of time into actually learning, you can become an amazing designer in a few months. The Elements of Principles of Design, Colour Theory, Theory and Practices of Print and Web Design, are all well established and the MAJORITY of clients aren't looking for something avante-garde, just of the popular trend and designing something that represents something sleek and modern can be done with your eyes closed as long as you have the understanding of how the software works and those aforementioned knowledge. There's little room to make mistakes because any question about "good design" can be answered by referring to your elements and principles. With photography, it seems very wishy-washy as to what's a good photo, what's not. Sure, there's the rules of composition, but they by no means seem to be concrete. The way I try to learn any form of art is to look at its history, find its trends and hallmark artists and see what they've done to define the art form. I get criticized here a lot because I have a tendency to crop very loose, often leaving 2/3rds of the image as the background and only 1/3rd the subject. I partly get that from the rule of thirds and Fibonacci (Golden Ratio) concepts I've picked up from my earlier design knowledge, but a lot of it is me trying to imitate masters like Cartier Bresson and Robert Frank. A lot of their images are cropped (well not cropped, but composed) loosely, with the background being more prevalent to than the subject (at least in terms of sheer space taken up in a photo). So I've come to the conclusion that photography doesn't have the strict set of rules that govern its success like design. Sure, you can post an image for C&C but not every bit of advice can be taken at face value where as if a graphic designer is criticizing your work, you can be sure if he's knowledgeable about design theory you can't really afford to not listen to him/her.

I mean, even if you are not sure about your colour choices on a website you are designing, and you need to really nail the colour selection, you can head over to Adobe Kuler just to confirm that the colours you picked do not break Colour Theory so designers don't even really have to think about that anymore. It is almost an automated process at this point and anyone can do it (well almost anyone). To be good and for clients (especially clients who don't actually know design) to see you as "good" is really REALLY hard in graphic design right now, because even the newest greenest graphic designer straight out of high school who has even the least bit of interest in being a serious graphic designer, is at least decent.

Okay this was long. But as a experienced graphic designer, I can tell you that the graphic design market is way more saturated than photography. Bottom line is that you at least need a good camera to even think about going pro but with graphic design, you basically need... nothing. All this is to say... graphic design, not as easy as photographers think.

 

[usayit]

Whatever the study, I would certainly check typical recent grad salaries and job prospects prior to investing in such a path....

I have met so many with such substantial educational debt that they have very little hope of paying off in their early part of their lives and easily impacts all the way into retirement.

Its sad that one must weigh in interests against investment BUT its simply reality now.

 

[naptime]

thanks for all of your input


the investment is null. college is covered. whatever path she ultimately decides on. it's already covered.

but, obviously we aren't interested in wasting it on a path she wont follow afterwards.

no point is going to art school, and then becoming an accountant or a fry cook at applebees.

 

[usayit]

That's great! What a great opportunity with one less worry.

I would personally still double major as someone already mentioned. It took me 6 years but I managed all the way without loans and purchased my home (before the insane prices) right out of college. This was just before everything went down the toilet including my field.... computer engineering which is essentally CS with EE. If I had substantial debt, the house would have not been an option and debt would have sunk me during unemployment. If I were to do it all again, I would have done major in computer science with a minor in business instead. As per a previous comment.... double major in separate areas of study opens a lot more doors including ones that allow you the opportunity to pursue your true interests.

 

[skieur]

thanks for all of your input


the investment is null. college is covered. whatever path she ultimately decides on. it's already covered.

but, obviously we aren't interested in wasting it on a path she wont follow afterwards.

no point is going to art school, and then becoming an accountant or a fry cook at applebees.

I was not greatly impressed by art schools.

skieur

 

[skieur]

College is for experimentation, and exploration. Food for though.

College is for literacy, research and writing skills, which are necessary if you are working for a company rather than on your own and want to move up into the administrative higher salary categories.

skieur

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

College is for experimentation, and exploration. Food for though.

College is for literacy, research and writing skills,...
skieur

You should have gained those in high school. :roll:

 

[spacefuzz]

I would tell her to do what she loves best, because if she loves it she will be willing to put in all of the grueling work required to succeed. I think some of the best advice you could give is to work hard, its going to be hard, and keep at it until you succeed.

 

[c.cloudwalker]

Unless you can read the future, don't even try to.

I'm in Europe so things can be a bit different but I doubt it is that much different because Europe follows US trends pretty closely. And this is what I see: a bunch of kids today who were told to go into conputer repairs who can't get a job because they cranked out the computer repair people so much, there are too many of them...

The new thing today is graphic design. They're sending everyone down that pipeline and tomorrow we will have way too many graphic designers with no sense of design...

Your daughter is young enough. Let her be. Keep an eye on what's going on but don't force it on her.

You may not like it but she needs to make her own mistakes. Live with it.

 

[DiskoJoe]

There is nothing wrong with being a music teacher but it does not pay much and even some of the best do not make it to the professional symphony level for major cities. Being a pro photographer would be much harder then becoming a professional designer. Design can be adapted to many different genres of business very easily. but photography can be a major part of this trade and as such knowing how to use a camera will lower costs and open better opportunities.

Also know she can do both right?

 

[DiskoJoe]

Unless you can read the future, don't even try to.

I'm in Europe so things can be a bit different but I doubt it is that much different because Europe follows US trends pretty closely. And this is what I see: a bunch of kids today who were told to go into conputer repairs who can't get a job because they cranked out the computer repair people so much, there are too many of them...

The new thing today is graphic design. They're sending everyone down that pipeline and tomorrow we will have way too many graphic designers with no sense of design...

Your daughter is young enough. Let her be. Keep an eye on what's going on but don't force it on her.

You may not like it but she needs to make her own mistakes. Live with it.

Teach her to be a stone mason.