Question about Full vs Crop Sensor Cameras

[Original katomi]

Re above.. maybe someone who has both ff and crop could do this test. A side by side visual would be a lot easier to understand than 1000 words.

 

[Soocom1]

I mean, it was pretty clear what you said, and you have had several chances to clarify.
You said:
"If you mount say an EOS 100mm lens on a Canon 5D (full frame) and that mounted on a tripod, take a picture of a car, then switch the camera out to a crop sensor, but use the same exact lens and the same exact distance, the image in both cameras are exactly the same."

That statement is false. That's not my opinion or something up for interpretation. If I am misunderstanding some part of what you said, please advise which part I am not understanding.
Same lense, same distance, only difference is full frame vs crop sensor. The image will not be the same.

I don't easily call people liars. There is always the chance someone mistyped,right? So I respond for clarification. When I respond and instead of clarifying you respond back with "I've been doing this a long time", I have to assume you re-read what you wrote, and still believe it to be true. What you wrote and I quoted is not true. Perhaps you didn't type what you meant to type. Don't be so offended when someone disagrees with you that you don't even stop to wonder why they are disagreeing. It's possible you know way more than them because you "have been doing this for a long time". It's also possible you are wrong. Don't jump right to "I have been doing this for a long time so I couldn't possibly be wrong".

One:
Do not call me a liar.

Two: Let me be perfectly clear. In the example above:


The IMAGE CIRCLE in an APS camera is EXACTLY THE SAME as a 35mm camera.
The images are EXACTLY THE SAME image because the mounting distance in the two are EXACTLY THE SAME! The FOCAL distance is the same and the FOCUS distance is the same.

Three: The 'crop" is a result of the APS image area being smaller than the 35mm in the same exact setup. The area of a 35mm is "CROPPED" with the LESS area of an APS image area.
Therefore the image is still EXACTLY THE SAME!

The difference comes when one RE FRAMES the image to fit the Field of View. Therefore the images change when you change the focus and focal distance to fit the APS area!

 

[Dacaur]

Wrong.

Take a full frame camera mount a 100mm prime lense on it, mount it to a tripod. Find a car, and back up untill the car just fills the frame, rear bumper to front bumper.
Don't move the tripod, don't move the car.
Don't reframe.
Using the same lense, swap in a crop sensor camera. Take a picture, and said picture will NOT include the entire car. It will be missing quite a bit of the front and rear of the car.
That is not the same picture.
Full frame camera took a picture of an entire car.
Crop sensor camera took a picture of only part of a car.

The only way the pictures could be the same is if you reframed, that is physically move farther away with the crop sensor camera.

 

[Original katomi]

Starting to make sense, so this is why when I tried out a ff canon in the shop with the lens, canon 70 200 f4 l series, I did not seem to have as much reach on the ff as I did on my 600d
Let me if I understand now for a given lens the image size is set and that this set size circle of light/image falls onto a rectangular sensor. A ff sensor will cover more of the circle than the smaller crop sensor in the latter case the light/image falling on the area around the sensor where it will not be registered. . Is this correct

 

[crzyfotopeeple]

I will refer back to my original statement, this is a stupid argument and a waste of time. A truly talented photographer will take any system and achieve amazing results without focusing on all the bs semantics. No one will even know what type of camera you used and no one really cares. As long as you get the results YOU want that's all that matters. I guess it's better to sit at a computer and continue these childlike arguments. "YOUR A LIAR! NO I'M NOT, YOU ARE. DON'T EVER CALL ME NAMES. I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG, BLAH BLAH BLAH" Pathetic.

 

[Dacaur]

Yes.
Comparing two cameras, a ff and a crop sensor, both output an image size of approx 6000x4000 pixels, but on the crop sensor body, it's only capturing the center part of the image, effectively giving you more reach for a given zoom (1.6x for Canon) so the 70-200 becomes a 112-320)

In the above scenario taking a picture of a car, if you start with the crop sensor camera with the lense set to 70mm, in order to produce the exact same image with the full frame camera, you need to zoom in to 112mm.

 

[Dacaur]

I will refer back to my original statement, this is a stupid argument and a waste of time. A truly talented photographer will take any system and achieve amazing results without focusing on all the bs semantics. No one will even know what type of camera you used and no one really cares. As long as you get the results YOU want that's all that matters. I guess it's better to sit at a computer and continue these childlike arguments. "YOUR A LIAR! NO I'M NOT, YOU ARE. DON'T EVER CALL ME NAMES. I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG, BLAH BLAH BLAH" Pathetic.

I definitely agree it's a waste of time, however, letting incorrect information stand without challenge serves only to propagate incorrect information. It's not only the people here today that will see this. Years into the future some newbie wondering about ff vs crop sensors may find this thread on Google, and if the last word is that both will produce the same image, said new goes "huh, ok then I guess it doesn't matter, both will be exactly the same" and that's just not correct.
You see, it actually DOES matter. Using a crop sensor, all your lenses have, effectively, more telephoto, as well as not being able to take a photo as wide as the lense suggests, you cannot take a photo with a 100mm fov using a 100mm lense using a crop sensor camera. That matters.

Perhaps instead of going "you guys are dumb for arguing about this blah blah blah", you could join in the conversation to help people understand.

 

[Soocom1]

Wrong.

Take a full frame camera mount a 100mm prime lense on it, mount it to a tripod. Find a car, and back up untill the car just fills the frame, rear bumper to front bumper.
Don't move the tripod, don't move the car.
Don't reframe.
Using the same lense, swap in a crop sensor camera. Take a picture, and said picture will NOT include the entire car. It will be missing quite a bit of the front and rear of the car.
That is not the same picture.
Full frame camera took a picture of an entire car.
Crop sensor camera took a picture of only part of a car.

The only way the pictures could be the same is if you reframed, that is physically move farther away with the crop sensor camera.

Read what I said.

The IMAGE circle is EXACTLY THE SAME.
Ergo.. The SAME EXACT IMAGE!

THAT by definition makes the APS a "crop" because you are doing what?
CROPPING THE IMAGE.

Your thinking Image is defined by the final result.
I am talking about the image created IN THE CAMERA on a FF over a crop is going to be exactly the same image, but the 'crop" image is caused by the smaller area of the APS.

The Image when re-framed changes every aspect albeit only small amounts.

 

[crzyfotopeeple]

Perhaps instead of going "you guys are dumb for arguing about this blah blah blah", you could join in the conversation to help people understand.

Nah, I think I will go out and take photos. I don't think anything discussed in this thread is of any value for actually going out and taking photos, so thanks but no thanks.

 

[480sparky]

Wrong.

Take a full frame camera mount a 100mm prime lense on it, mount it to a tripod. Find a car, and back up untill the car just fills the frame, rear bumper to front bumper.
Don't move the tripod, don't move the car.
Don't reframe.
Using the same lense, swap in a crop sensor camera. Take a picture, and said picture will NOT include the entire car. It will be missing quite a bit of the front and rear of the car.
That is not the same picture.
Full frame camera took a picture of an entire car.
Crop sensor camera took a picture of only part of a car.

The only way the pictures could be the same is if you reframed, that is physically move farther away with the crop sensor camera.

Read what I said.

The IMAGE circle is EXACTLY THE SAME.
Ergo.. The SAME EXACT IMAGE!

THAT by definition makes the APS a "crop" because you are doing what?
CROPPING THE IMAGE.

Your thinking Image is defined by the final result.
I am talking about the image created IN THE CAMERA on a FF over a crop is going to be exactly the same image, but the 'crop" image is caused by the smaller area of the APS.

The Image when re-framed changes every aspect albeit only small amounts.

Technically, the image circle is the same, ............ even if there's no camera present.

 

[crzyfotopeeple]

Be forewarned, the following is super technical and should only be read by hyper-intellectual types with a degree from some prestigious university.

Step 1: Look through the viewfinder of whatever camera/lens you have.
Step 2: Compose your shot
Step 3: Adjust camera settings (if in full Auto disregard this step)
Step 4: Press shutter button
Step 5: Review and Repeat

Guaranteed to work every time.
Step 6 (optional): Go online and argue about image circles

 

[Dacaur]

Wrong.

Take a full frame camera mount a 100mm prime lense on it, mount it to a tripod. Find a car, and back up untill the car just fills the frame, rear bumper to front bumper.
Don't move the tripod, don't move the car.
Don't reframe.
Using the same lense, swap in a crop sensor camera. Take a picture, and said picture will NOT include the entire car. It will be missing quite a bit of the front and rear of the car.
That is not the same picture.
Full frame camera took a picture of an entire car.
Crop sensor camera took a picture of only part of a car.

The only way the pictures could be the same is if you reframed, that is physically move farther away with the crop sensor camera.

Read what I said.

The IMAGE circle is EXACTLY THE SAME.
Ergo.. The SAME EXACT IMAGE!

THAT by definition makes the APS a "crop" because you are doing what?
CROPPING THE IMAGE.

Your thinking Image is defined by the final result.
I am talking about the image created IN THE CAMERA on a FF over a crop is going to be exactly the same image, but the 'crop" image is caused by the smaller area of the APS.

The Image when re-framed changes every aspect albeit only small amounts.

Ah.
I see.
You are going on about something that doesn't matter in the least to the photographer. Any photographer.
When you say " the image in both cameras..." I, and likely most of the population is thinking you are talking about the image we see in the viewfinder or screen, not the image projected inside the camera by the lense....
The image circle inside the camera doesn't matter. To anyone. Why would it? What matters, and what the op was questioning, was the image file resulting from pressing the shutter button.

For future reference, so many posts could have been avoided if you had just said what you meant "you are right, the image created when you press the shutter button is different depending on if you are using ff or a crop sensor. I was actually talking about something that doesn't matter on the least to the photographer, you know, something you can't actually see"
Would that have been so hard? This is why I asked for clarification several times. Again, maybe try something more than 'i have been doing this a long time" when someone questions you.....
For the record, I still don't believe you have done it and seen the result with your own eyes. You are speaking strictly in theory....

 

[Derrel]

The idea that a crop sensor camera and a full frame camera produced "the same image "when shot with a particular lens used on both camera
Is not true. Take your full frame camera and Mount a 24 mm lens. The picture will be a wide angle view. Pretty wide. Use the same 24 mm Lens on a crop frame body and you will have basically a 36mm equivalent, with a much narrower angle of view.

The crop frame sensor does not see the outer periphery of the projected image circle from the lens.

Note that with a telephoto lens if you mount a 300 mm lens and aim it at a bird 100 feet distant the full frame and the crop frame will have the same sized bird, but in the crop sensor camera the bird will fill more of the frame area than it does in the fall frame capture.

Still the idea that a crop frame and a full frame sensor give "the same image"
is erroneous if by image we mean "picture".

 

[photoflyer]

I really don't want to get caught up in the arguments so I have not quoted anyone.

But this link should help.

My Cloud

I took this series to compare body/lens/teleconverter combinations but it shows crop versus full frame for the same shot on a tripod from same distance.

The filename tells you with what equipment image was shot.

D... 6D Mark II, Full frame
T... T7i. Crop

300. 300 F4 L
70200. 70-200 F 2.8 L. @. 200mm

14. 1.4x teleconverter
20. 2.0x teleconverter
Blank no teleconverter

So D70200-14.jpg is the 6D Mark II 70-200@200mm and the 1.4x teleconverter. T20200-14.jpg same but on the crop sensor.

 

[Derrel]

This is the first time I have ever heard anybody try to say that a crop frame and a full frame sensor give the same image!

Why does the OP ask about a field of view factor???????!!!!!!!because the field of view is different between a crop frame sensor and the full frame sensor, at every focal length.