Secondary low noise camera - used low res full frame vs new full frame?

[erotavlas]

I have Sony Nex 5N which I find great for day time photo, night shots are good too but I'm pushing the limit especially when I do stuff like star trails (battery life - really need something with a battery grip) and higher ISO stuff at shorter exposures.

I was also wondering why spend so much on a new camera when there are 12MP - 16MP full frame DSLR from previous generation that have the same resolution as say something like the A7s by sony

Wouldn't they also have the same high ISO noise performance? Or is there something that has been improved in the newer sensors that would make it not worth it to buy the older full frame cameras?

 

[Derrel]

At higher ISO levels, the newer sensors from SOny and Nikon are better than older FF cameras like the Canon 16.7 MP 1Ds is. The Canon 5D was as good as the Nikon D3; the D3s was better than the D700/5D classic/D3, which were all pretty close at up to 800 and even 1600 ISO; NOW, the newest cameras, the 36MP Nikon D810, is clearly, the best sensor in the 35mm format type camera arena, bar none. Better than the SOny A7r. Far better than anything Canon has for both low noise, and for shadow recovery potential.

I saw some Sony A7s video; that sensor has, according to what I read, a NEW way of addressing High ISO gain, which Nikon is also using in the D810, so the sensor in the A7s is **specifically** optimized to give BETTER high ISO capabilities than the earlier sensors were; as is most things high-technology, there are improvments made as time goes on.

High ISO is also becoming a relative term; what we used to call High ISO was 3,200; now it's 12,800 up to 25,000+ to over 50,000, and even higher!!!

I just watched the new Nikon D810 video given by Nikon Canada at Vistek; the new D810 at 12,800 is a bit better than the D800/D800e were at ISO 3,200, which looks about like a D3 at 1,000 ISO. Sp, when talking about High ISO, you need to consider what you actually mean by that term: 12,800 is the new High ISO threshold in Nikon D810. So, yeah, newer sensors; newer read electronics; newer ways of dealing with gain, newer ways of dealing with noise reduction; the newer cameras are flat out better than cameras from the late mid-2000's era at High ISO levels. If you're happy at ISO 3,200 though, then the advances are not as big a deal.

But it's NOT just about "noise". The overall dynamic range has grown wider, and also the ability to "lift the shadows" without noise, has also grown a LOT in these newer two generation of sensors, so the D610 and D800 and now the D810 are raising the bar. Tony Northrup tested the D810 with his wife last week" they are switching to Nikon after previously having been big fans of the Canon 5D Mark III.

 

[snerd]

....... Tony Northrup tested the D810 with his wife last week" they are switching to Nikon after previously having been big fans of the Canon 5D Mark III.

Just. Stop. It.

 

[Derrel]

....... Tony Northrup tested the D810 with his wife last week" they are switching to Nikon after previously having been big fans of the Canon 5D Mark III.

Just. Stop. It.

You know...after Tony's intitial gun-jumping video calling the D810 "a minor upgrade," and then running off at the mouth about everything the D810 allegedly LACKED...seeing he and his wife TESTING the D810 out and it blowing the doors off the 5D-III in his own, self-designed suite of tests..well, that was ironic and satifying. WHat he did, maybe without intention, or maybe with a bit of ill will, was to rush to proclaim Canon superior, and to downplay Nikon's efforts over two years of development and R&D work on their follow-up model to the D800 AND the D800e... but he got what he deserved...egg on face--and a new camera system...after he actually TRIED the D810 head-to-head against his beloved 5D III.

The 5D III is due for replacement soon, actually. Ergonomically, it is a wonderful camera body, and it FEELS soooooo perfectly designed in the hand. But it has grown older now,and Canon will probably soon need to iterate it with a sensor that can compete. But to get a sensor that can compete, they need NEW sensor-manufacturing technology, or to buy sensors from "outside" from another corporation that has already spent the hundreds of millions of Yen to build newer, better sensor fab machinery. This is a MAJOR expense.

 

[snerd]

....... Tony Northrup tested the D810 with his wife last week" they are switching to Nikon after previously having been big fans of the Canon 5D Mark III.

Just. Stop. It.

You know...after Tony's intitial gun-jumping video calling the D810 "a minor upgrade," and then running off at the mouth about everything the D810 allegedly LACKED...seeing he and his wife TESTING the D810 out and it blowing the doors off the 5D-III in his own, self-designed suite of tests..well, that was ironic and satifying. WHat he did, maybe without intention, or maybe with a bit of ill will, was to rush to proclaim Canon superior, and to downplay Nikon's efforts over two years of development and R&D work on their follow-up model to the D800 AND the D800e... but he got what he deserved...egg on face--and a new camera system...after he actually TRIED the D810 head-to-head against his beloved 5D III.

The 5D III is due for replacement soon, actually. Ergonomically, it is a wonderful camera body, and it FEELS soooooo perfectly designed in the hand. But it has grown older now,and Canon will probably soon need to iterate it with a sensor that can compete. But to get a sensor that can compete, they need NEW sensor-manufacturing technology, or to buy sensors from "outside" from another corporation that has already spent the hundreds of millions of Yen to build newer, better sensor fab machinery. This is a MAJOR expense.

You're preaching to the choir. I've made no secret of drooling over that bad boy.

 

[erotavlas]

At higher ISO levels, the newer sensors from SOny and Nikon are better than older FF cameras like the Canon 16.7 MP 1Ds is. The Canon 5D was as good as the Nikon D3; the D3s was better than the D700/5D classic/D3, which were all pretty close at up to 800 and even 1600 ISO; NOW, the newest cameras, the 36MP Nikon D810, is clearly, the best sensor in the 35mm format type camera arena, bar none. Better than the SOny A7r. Far better than anything Canon has for both low noise, and for shadow recovery potential.

I saw some Sony A7s video; that sensor has, according to what I read, a NEW way of addressing High ISO gain, which Nikon is also using in the D810, so the sensor in the A7s is **specifically** optimized to give BETTER high ISO capabilities than the earlier sensors were; as is most things high-technology, there are improvments made as time goes on.

High ISO is also becoming a relative term; what we used to call High ISO was 3,200; now it's 12,800 up to 25,000+ to over 50,000, and even higher!!!

I just watched the new Nikon D810 video given by Nikon Canada at Vistek; the new D810 at 12,800 is a bit better than the D800/D800e were at ISO 3,200, which looks about like a D3 at 1,000 ISO. Sp, when talking about High ISO, you need to consider what you actually mean by that term: 12,800 is the new High ISO threshold in Nikon D810. So, yeah, newer sensors; newer read electronics; newer ways of dealing with gain, newer ways of dealing with noise reduction; the newer cameras are flat out better than cameras from the late mid-2000's era at High ISO levels. If you're happy at ISO 3,200 though, then the advances are not as big a deal.

But it's NOT just about "noise". The overall dynamic range has grown wider, and also the ability to "lift the shadows" without noise, has also grown a LOT in these newer two generation of sensors, so the D610 and D800 and now the D810 are raising the bar. Tony Northrup tested the D810 with his wife last week" they are switching to Nikon after previously having been big fans of the Canon 5D Mark III.

Ok I understand, but say you don't want to spend $3000+ on the newest body just for doing long exposures / high ISO work, when there are plenty of second hand cameras out there at reduced prices. There must be some previous generation full frame cameras that will beat even the new APSC sized sensors at ISO 3200+ , aren't there?

 

[Designer]

I'd say "follow the market". You and others here on TPF are not the only ones who want high performance at an affordable price, and the market for used cameras reflect that demand. Somewhere in the spectrum of used camera prices will be your budget.

 

[ronlane]

Just. Stop. It.

You know...after Tony's intitial gun-jumping video calling the D810 "a minor upgrade," and then running off at the mouth about everything the D810 allegedly LACKED...seeing he and his wife TESTING the D810 out and it blowing the doors off the 5D-III in his own, self-designed suite of tests..well, that was ironic and satifying. WHat he did, maybe without intention, or maybe with a bit of ill will, was to rush to proclaim Canon superior, and to downplay Nikon's efforts over two years of development and R&D work on their follow-up model to the D800 AND the D800e... but he got what he deserved...egg on face--and a new camera system...after he actually TRIED the D810 head-to-head against his beloved 5D III.

The 5D III is due for replacement soon, actually. Ergonomically, it is a wonderful camera body, and it FEELS soooooo perfectly designed in the hand. But it has grown older now,and Canon will probably soon need to iterate it with a sensor that can compete. But to get a sensor that can compete, they need NEW sensor-manufacturing technology, or to buy sensors from "outside" from another corporation that has already spent the hundreds of millions of Yen to build newer, better sensor fab machinery. This is a MAJOR expense.

You're preaching to the choir. I've made no secret of drooling over that bad boy.

Derrel would call me out if I said I haven't even thought about the D810. We had a discussion the other day about how I could switch from Canon to Nikon.

 

[snerd]

Canon better jump big with their announcements next month, I think.