Seeking Advice re: Next Camera Choice

billyk1964 · Aug 24, 2013

Hello, All:

I am new to the Forum and excited to be here! I am considering upgrading from my Canon G12 to a DSLR. I'm torn between a Canon EOS 7D and a Pentax K5 II. Each has benefits that are appealing; the Pentax (16.3 MP) is advertised as being 'rugged' and weather resistant, while the Canon has an 18.0 MP processor. Both have Magnesium outer bodies. Plus, I already have the Canon software installed in my computer. But the Pentax is about $200 less expensive.

I'm wondering if the 2 MP is going to make a big difference? I am very protective of my gear in 'iffy' weather, but the rugged aspect is appealing nonetheless. Would anyone care to offer advice?

Many Thanks!!

KmH · Aug 24, 2013

No. The 2 MP won't make any difference at all.

Virtually all DSLRs are weather resistant. Weather and dust sealing just makes those that have it some amount more resistant.

The main purposes of a metal body are to block RF (radio frequency) interference from the camera electronics, and to aid in the dissipation of heat.

The Pentax has SR - image stabilization (IS) in the camera, while both Canon and Nikon put IS (Nikon calls it VR) in the lens.
In the camera stabilization cannot be seem working in a DSLR camera viewfinder, and the range of corrective movement is constrained.
Lenses designed for in-the-camera IS also have to project a somewhat larger image circle.

No doubt with in-the-lens IS, a IS mechanism is needed in each lens which would add some amount of cost.
You should also consider that if an in-the-camera IS system stops working you have no IS, but if an in-the-lens IS system stops working you can mount another lens to regain IS.

Bulb · Aug 24, 2013

The megapixels won't matter much.

Also take into account any future lenses you may eventually buy. Does the Pentax not have that super wide angle you want? Does the 7D's 24-105mm cost more than Pentax's? Etc.

Don't discount the durability of the 7D. A 7D can be hit by a truck, dropped down the stairs, frozen, soaked, and set on fire and still take pictures
(WARNING -Contrains Extreme Violence and Gore!):

The best thing to do would be to head to a local store and try them both. The one that feels the best in your hands and has the most natural controls is the one you'll probably want to buy. You probably won't use the extra megapixels, more than 10% its' lens lineup, or the over-the-top ruggedness of either camera. You will have to deal with the way you hold it and how its controls and menus are laid out every single time you use it.

Derrel · Aug 24, 2013

I just read the conclusion of the K5-II review over at dPreview. I read the original K5 review back when it came out; the new review was published in June of 2013. dPreview called it, "One of the best APS-C d-slrs," in terms of high-ISO image quality. The 7D is an older model, which uses the same old sensor Canon has been regurgitating since the year 2009. I headed over to DxO Mark to see how much better the K5-II is...you know, for dPreview to praise the sensor's wide dynamic range and good imaging performance.

The Pentax Limited series prime lenses would be nice for this camera, and Pentax also has some nice zooms that are optimized for APS-C. In-body stabilization is nice too, and this camera has that. As you can see by the DxO Mark tests, the newer, SONY-made sensor in the Pentax easily betters the Canon's sensor where it counts the most: in usable dynamic range, Low-Light High ISO, and color depth. Since this camera is now selling in the $800 range, it's a good value. It uses the same sensor as is used in the Nikon D7000. So again, it's a better, newer sensor than the 18-megapixel sensor that Canon has been recycling thus its APS-C models since 2009. I have used Pentax cameras a bit, dating back to the early 1980's; their lenses have a decided family feel to them; well-dampened on their manual focusing lenses, many compact or pancake-like lenses, and the *-series zooms are pretty neat.

If you've ever used a Pentax 35mm SLR, you'll understand that Pentax has been building some very fine cameras that are small, yet which don't feel all cramped and dinky. Pentax has always had a slightly "different" design ethos than Canon, or Sony, and Minolta, which is where Sony came from. Pentax has always had a "real, traditional camera," ethos, as if the cameras were designed by people who know how to make fricking CAMERAS, not consumer electronics, or toasters, or whatever. Canon, and Sony, seem to have a different family feel, more electronified, to coin a word. If you've handled a Pentax,and a Canon, and a Sony camera, all made within the last 20 years, you'll know what I mean.

Gavjenks · Aug 24, 2013

The 7D is an older model, which uses the same old sensor Canon has been regurgitating since the year 2009.

Yes, how DARE they use a 2009 sensor on their camera model that was introduced in 2009?!

goodguy · Aug 24, 2013

Comparing the Pentax K-5 II to the Canon 7D I would go with the Pentax in a heart beat

Dao · Aug 25, 2013

5 years ago, I do not know much about photography. If I am using my same 5 years old ago photography and camera gear knowledge (which is zero) to choose between K5 II and 7D, I will pick the K5 II without any doubt based on the reviews.

However, if I am going to pick based on my 5 years knowledge and experience, I may not do that. At this point of game, I will rather pick a camera either from Canon or Nikon. It is not because one camera is going to be much much better than the other one. It is because of the system and most important 3rd party support is better with Canon and Nikon.

If Sigma, Tamron or Tokin release a great lens, I am pretty sure they will make one with Canon and Nikon mount. When a 3rd make a radio flash trigger that support TTL, I am pretty sure they will make one for Canon and Nikon. What about 3rd party flash?

So now if you want me to pick between K5 II and 7D, I will tell you I will take 7D (I am a 7D owner). But that does not mean the K5 body is not as good. It maybe even better. Now, if you put a Nikon camera body into the game, that's a different story. Now the 7D advantages such as those 3rd parties support are now gone since Nikon also has good 3rd parties support.

OP, if you are not planning to expand too much, just want to get one camera, couple lenses and that's it, the Pentax is a great camera. But if you want more in the future, there are more options in the Canon and Nikon side. Don't get me wrong, Pentax do have a great lens selection, but it just that Canon and Nikon are better in lens support area including OEM or 3rd parties.

billyk1964 · Aug 25, 2013

Thank you so much for all the great feedback! It's obvious that this forum's members have a great deal of technical knowledge and are generous in sharing. My very first 'good' camera was a Pentax KX SLR that my Dad got me for a past birthday, so I have a sentimental connection to the brand. But I have been using Canon digital point-and-shoots for some time now. So while I was indecisive your input has been valuable; thank you all again!!

Derrel · Aug 25, 2013

Gavjenks said:
The 7D is an older model, which uses the same old sensor Canon has been regurgitating since the year 2009.

Click to expand...

Yes, how DARE they use a 2009 sensor on their camera model that was introduced in 2009?!

Since 2009, Canon has re-issued the same APS-C sensor in multiple, newer models. I'm not a Canon fan so I'll just state it plainly...Canon has been re-issuing "new" cameras built around the same sensor since 2009. The T4i and T5i, which was released this year, are using the same old, outdated 2009 sensor. Nice try on a pro-Canon spin fanboy...but reading comprehension can be tough, I know...so here it is in video format. Oughtta' help.

Look at Canon's lack of APS-C innovation.

Start at 3:00 for the lack of sensor development...since 2009, Canon has released five new cameras...ALL that use the same, outdated 2009 sensor. Canon spending $800 million dollars a year on R&D but just puking out almost a half-dozen new models that have the same outdated capabilities, deliberately software-crippled cameras, etc... Magic Lantern is showing the Canon community how software-crippled new Canon APS-C cameras actually are.

As he points out, Canon has not been innovating in their APS-C cameras. It's been going on for several years too. Like I said, since 2009, five "new" models, all based on the same outdated 18 megapixel sensor. 2009, 2010,2011,2012,2013 five years, same old sensor.

jaomul · Aug 25, 2013

I use canon (and I do really like them) but... If I was starting with a dslr system today i would not start with them, I would certainly pick the pentax. This is not really because i feel the canon holds me back but all the facts state that the opposing company sensor is better, and at the end of the shoot image quality is the reason i own a dslr in the first place.

wyogirl · Aug 25, 2013

I love my Canon but that is because its the brand I have always used and all the controls are where I think they should be. Had I learned on another brand, I would likely be stuck on said brand. My husband bought my my DSLR and I was so excited that I didn't even consider wanting another brand. Having been on this forum I think I would have liked Nikon for quality and features better than Canon.

So I guess all I'm saying is, you may like the Pentax better because you are familiar with the film Pentax cameras. Plus it seems its better quality than the Canon right now.

But I also have to say that as a PP mentioned, the third party lens and accessories will be easier to find for either Canon or Nikon so I guess you have to decide if that is a factor for you.

Derrel · Aug 25, 2013

If you want more information on the Pentax lens lineup, these three pages have each lens AND dozens of reviews for each lens, neatly categorized.

Pentax DA Prime Lenses - Reviews and Specifications - SLR and Interchangeable Lenses - Pentax Lens Reviews & Lens Database

Pentax DA Zoom Lenses - Reviews and Specifications - SLR and Interchangeable Lenses - Pentax Lens Reviews & Lens Database

Pentax DA L Zoom Lenses - Reviews and Specifications - SLR and Interchangeable Lenses - Pentax Lens Reviews & Lens Database

And remember: the K5 II body has in-built lens stabilization, so EVERY one of these lenses, and dozens more K-mount lenses, all will have stabilizing.

Gavjenks · Aug 25, 2013

Since 2009, Canon has re-issued the same APS-C sensor in multiple, newer models. I'm not a Canon fan so I'll just state it plainly...Canon has been re-issuing "new" cameras built around the same sensor since 2009. The T4i and T5i, which was released this year, are using the same old, outdated 2009 sensor. Nice try on a pro-Canon spin fanboy...but reading comprehension can be tough, I know...so here it is in video format. Oughtta' help.

Okay?

The OP was asking about the 7D, not the T5i. Your response was that the 7D has an outdated sensor. While true technically, this is very misleading, since when it was designed, the 7D had a brand new sensor.

It's not physically possible for the 7D to have a newer sensor than it has while still being the same model, so that's not really a "negative" point with regard to the K5-II.

Also, incidentally, the K5-II has a larger sensor that the 7D and fewer pixels, making the size of each of its pixels 25% larger than the 7D's. Just basic optics tell us that the K5-II sensor will have better low light performance and dynamic range, etc. as a result, regardless of the generation of technology involved in sensor construction. Physical pixel size almost always makes a much larger difference than brand differences or technological improvements over a few years. Hence the huge jump in quality (either resolution or low light/dynamic range) from any crop frame to any full frame, compared to between any two brands at equal sensor sizes.

I'm not suggesting he buy the 7D. I think that as long as you're okay with Pentax lens selection and higher end models for upgrades later on, and if you don't need to stronger construction (e.g. mountain climbing), then the K5-II probably the better choice at the moment. But it almost certainly has nothing to do with an "out of date" sensor. It has to do with a larger yet cheaper sensor and other features of the camera's ergonomics, etc.

And it DEFINITELY has nothing to do with Canon's engineering choices regarding cameras that were all made after the one that the OP cares about.

jaomul · Aug 25, 2013

Gavjenks said:
Since 2009, Canon has re-issued the same APS-C sensor in multiple, newer models. I'm not a Canon fan so I'll just state it plainly...Canon has been re-issuing "new" cameras built around the same sensor since 2009. The T4i and T5i, which was released this year, are using the same old, outdated 2009 sensor. Nice try on a pro-Canon spin fanboy...but reading comprehension can be tough, I know...so here it is in video format. Oughtta' help.

Click to expand...

Okay?

The OP was asking about the 7D, not the T5i. Your response was that the 7D has an outdated sensor. While true technically, this is very misleading, since when it was designed, the 7D had a brand new sensor.

It's not physically possible for the 7D to have a newer sensor than it has while still being the same model, so that's not really a "negative" point with regard to the K5-II.

Also, incidentally, the K5-II has a larger sensor that the 7D and fewer pixels, making the size of each of its pixels 25% larger than the 7D's. Just basic optics tell us that the K5-II sensor will have better low light performance and dynamic range, etc. as a result, regardless of the generation of technology involved in sensor construction. Physical pixel size almost always makes a much larger difference than brand differences or technological improvements over a few years. Hence the huge jump in quality (either resolution or low light/dynamic range) from any crop frame to any full frame, compared to between any two brands at equal sensor sizes.

I'm not suggesting he buy the 7D. I think that as long as you're okay with Pentax lens selection and higher end models for upgrades later on, and if you don't need to stronger construction (e.g. mountain climbing), then the K5-II probably the better choice at the moment. But it almost certainly has nothing to do with an "out of date" sensor. It has to do with a larger yet cheaper sensor and other features of the camera's ergonomics, etc.

And it DEFINITELY has nothing to do with Canon's engineering choices regarding cameras that were all made after the one that the OP cares about.

While a lot of points here are valid, the newer 24mp sony sensors apparently have higher dynamic range and better noise handling than Canons 18mp sensor, so technological improvements can make a difference. Now as said previously I do use canon, so I am not saying they don't do great cameras but they are a little behind in the sensor dept.

Derrel · Aug 25, 2013

The OP asked about two camera choices: the Canon 7D, or the Pentax K5-II. As the dPreview review stated in JUNE, of 2013, as in THIS YEAR, the K5-II is "one of the best APS-C dslr's in terms of high ISO performance." It also has a newly-updated focusing system, 7 frames per second firing rate, in-body image stabilization system, and so on. It's also available at a very good price. It is, in short, a "NEW" camera, newly-reviewed, a revision of an earlier model, and it has a relatively NEW, and better, sensor than the Canon 7D has. The Pentax has better dynamic range, better color depth, and as DxO Mark shows, the Pentax sensor tests out better, with a score of 82, versus the Canon with its five-year-old sensor design lagging with a score of 66.

The simple truth is this: Canon has NOT updated its APS-C sensors in five years.

The OP asked about choices between TWO, specific models. I have pointed out that one of his choice was reviewed at dPreview.com in JUNE of 2013. Why? Because it is a MODERN, current camera model introduced to the market not that long ago...not some left-over from 2009.

The newer Sony-made sensors have revolutionized digital camera exposure and exposure processing. Sony uses new, state of the art .18 micron sensor fabrication technology. Canon is still stuck with its outdated, .50 micron sensor fab technology.Canon's APS-C bodies are built on the SAME five year-old sensor.