Selling photos to others is not "the natural progression of photography"

[Derrel]

I guess I don't see the technical aspects so much just the personality of the subject and how it impacts me.

EXACTLY!!!! Retail customers judge photos based on their own, personal relationships with the people in the photos. Technical quality, compositions with loads of empty, dead space, bad crops,oddball positioning of people, crotches placed at the edges of the frame, unflattering poses, all that stuff...most people overlook those types of flaws if their loved ones look "good". But that does not mean that a better, more-skilled person's images will not also receive high marks. It **is** possible to do quality work AND make people look friendly.

People who shoot family groups with a 50mm lens, wide-open, shot after shot, with entire rows of people out of focus, with ALL of their clothing out of focus, and only their teeth in-focus are not skilled. When there are shots that are shown TINY, because "the children are actually out of focus"...that person's skills and judgement are not high. ANd I see those things in her blog, over and over. Failure to shoot individual shots of four kids during yearly family sessions? OMG!!!

Take the earlier session: here is what I as an unrelated, non-family member "see" from her work.
100725_021-web.jpg The tree sprouting from sister's shoulder is very distracting; this is called "checking the background for unwanted elements". His eye direction is also extremely unfortunate...looks like a glance toward her chest. Just a horrible shot.

100725_073-web.jpg At the end...I guess brother deserves a tree sprouting out of his head as well.

100725_057-web.jpg TREE growing right out of your head: I learned how to avoid that in my ninth grade photography class. Thanks Mr. Wilson!

There are professional photographers with training in the visual arts, and their work is at another level entirely, from that of the self-taught, wide-open, 50mm lens type shooter. Your most-recent $950 experience is a great example of a barely adequate "pro" doing BAD work...work that disappointed you, because...it was BADLY done. The proof is in her results:Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

McDonald's is one of the most successful restaurants in America. it has many outlets, and rakes in a LOT of money. Will you be taking the wife there for your 30th wedding anniversary dinner? kraft's individually-wrapped single slices of processed American cheese--one of the USA's MOST-popular cheese products, by unit sales. But--is it really good cheese?

 

[charchri4]

Oh my bad you were looking at the older stuff. You are spot on and I never noticed that before. So maybe it's a dumbed down market issue then. A few of those shots have been hanging on my walls for 5 years and I never noticed and trees coming out of heads even though that is something I've looked for in the view finder long before that session.

So it appears the bottom line is the market will buy crap without even knowing it and thus the reason folks think all they need do is pick up a camera and hang out a shingle...

 

[charchri4]

PS Thank you Darrel for making this a fascinating discussion! I 'm going to hold the order for business cards and take the cowbell portrait out of my portfolio now . LOL seriously this is good stuff for newbees and I have learned a lot from it.

 

[The_Traveler]

So is the definition of professional what the market wants or what the critics declare as worthy?

I am not trying to rub salt into a wound but look at the first group image posted of your family.
It is way,way, way yellow and the group is at the lower left of the frame with lots of empty space on the right and at the top
That is actually somehat fixable after the fact but it hasn't been done.

Look at her previous thread of the Bailey family.
The family is very close and their poses are csual and nice but look at the framing - empty space on tops and sides with heads right at teh margin. Heavy ugly vignettes.

I'm not a pro - in that I don't shoot for money - but I would never post work like this.

.

 

[Derrel]

Oh my bad you were looking at the older stuff. You are spot on and I never noticed that before. So maybe it's a dumbed down market issue then. A few of those shots have been hanging on my walls for 5 years and I never noticed and trees coming out of heads even though that is something I've looked for in the view finder long before that session.

So it appears the bottom line is the market will buy crap without even knowing it and thus the reason folks think all they need do is pick up a camera and hang out a shingle...

No, I looked at her blog, and her most-recent work, as well as earlier work. I looked at all three of the links that you provided. her most recent work is where I saw the 50mm f/1.4 shots that turned out so poorly.

I looked at shots where people in talls were way off to the left side of the frame, with empty spaces that contributed nothing. I saw f/1.4 shots that had huge amounts of the peoples' bodies wayyyyy out of focus. Over and over. I saw shots with inadequate DOF, displayed small, to hide the inadequate sharpness. First rule of blown focus: make it SMALL!

But yeah, you are right: the market will buy crap without even knowing it and thus the reason folks think all they need do is pick up a camera and hang out a shingle. Many people have no training in the visual arts or in photography, and they cannot easily differentiate between a poor photographer and a good one.

You'll notice that she's not shooting high-budget advertising campaigns; her technical grasp of photography is limited. She was utterly STYMIED when confronted with your family reunion's groups shots, which were done in a very unprofessional way, with unprofessional results--despite the $950 you payed to get some bad images, dupes, B&W conversions, and bad processing and editing and poor lighting/exposures.

If I worked as a burger cook at a McDonald's for two years, does that mean I am a professional chef? If I successfully did my own brakes, am I a professional mechanic? If I manage to catch fish most of the times I go fishing, am I a professional fishing guide? If I treated an abcess on my cat, am I therefore qualified to be a veterinarian? The answer to all four is no,no,no,and no. But in photography, I can be a "professional" if only people pay me. At least by one definition of "professional photographer".

There are almost no real barriers to entry in social media-based professional photography; a Canon Rebel, maybe a flash, a copy of Lightroom, that's a great start. BOOM! Insta-pro!

Definitely, order the business cards Jim!

 

[Designer]

So is the definition of professional what the market wants or what the critics declare as worthy?

No offense meant to your daughter, who I'm sure thought she picked a skilled professional, but the truth is; the "market" doesn't know s*it! Most purchasers of art have no experience in judging art, and that includes photography services of course.

As for the critics; there is no mechanism for respected critics to criticize each and every photographer who decides to pick up a camera. Just a select few are criticized in any depth, and that's because they're already doing decent work.

I'm really sorry about your experience, but consider it an important lesson learned.

BTW: the photographer that my family has hired many times over the years could be going out of business, I see that his building is for sale.

So the good ones go out of business and the crappy ones get hired for megabucks.

 

[charchri4]

Well you got me thinking so I had to find out who did the photos for us this year and here is the link to her site. Studio B - Home

Interesting most of her family stuff looks just like Amandas stuff but with dumb furniture. I have no idea with either of them charge for sitting fees and what not just what the total bill was this year from the studio b gal. I know it was not near as expensive from Amanda in 2010.

 

[sabbath999]

But you just drove home the point this thread is trying to say is impossible. For all her ineptness Amanda makes a very good living and works as much as she wants to. She successfully moved her business from Minneapolis to Kansas City and barely missed a beat for sessions. The reason you don't see senior photos on her site is because she makes enough shooting what she enjoys.

That's not at all the point of this thread. The point of this thread is that "selling" is "a" "possible" progression in photography, not "THE ONLY" progression in photography.

I think people become far too wrapped up in their own strings to notice.

 

[The_Traveler]

That's not at all the point of this thread. The point of this thread is that "selling" is "a" "possible" progression in photography, not "THE ONLY" progression in photography.

I think people become far too wrapped up in their own strings to notice.

What a right on-point, and charitable, point to make.
This is, AFAIC, absolutely similar to how people defend their choice of equipment.
When people have a lot invested, through a complex decision process and often a lor of money, they may not be able to tolerate the possibility of being wrong - or being seen as being wrong.

 

[tirediron]

That's not at all the point of this thread. The point of this thread is that "selling" is "a" "possible" progression in photography, not "THE ONLY" progression in photography.

I think people become far too wrapped up in their own strings to notice.

This. Exactly. There's nothing wrong with hanging out your shingle, but for gawd's sake, have at least half a clue before you do!

 

[The_Traveler]

I don't sell my pictures or try to sell my pictures or even feel like selling my pictures and yet, compared to a good many of the professionals I've seen, I am possibly skilled enough to be a standard portrait or event photographer.

My belief is that the interest in selling, in making money exerts too much of a distorting influence on how I personally take pictures.
It is difficult enough for me to make pictures that I like and I don't need to add another point of pressure.

I would probably be less frustrated about what I do if I really loved shooting weddings or real estate pictures or senior pictures some other marketable stuff but I don't.
When I read, again and again, that, to be a success as a photographer, a person must be good businessman more than a good photographer, I am so happy I am content to be unsuccessful as a photographer.

 

[vintagesnaps]

John, you think they should have a clue?? your standards are entirely too high! lol

 

[tirediron]

John, you think they should have a clue?? your standards are entirely too high! lol

That's why I only stipulated "half". I'm realistic.

 

[Derrel]

The point of this thread is that "selling" is "a" "possible" progression in photography, not "THE ONLY" progression in photography.

There are thousands upon thousands of people on Facebook selling workshops and action sets and workflow "kits" who beg to differ! Creativelive.com has its many videos for sale each and every week, emphasizing how one can become a pro photog. Social media and some large web sites are on-line, promoting the idea of going pro.

In the absence of tens of thousands of web sites promoting photography for the joy of it, for the fun of it, I think the messages coming from the sites selling the dream of becoming a professional photographer will continue to win the battle.

 

[Vtec44]

The key is to do what you love, then sell it to the people that love what do. Photography is time consuming and expensive. Not all of us will have the time or can afford to do it for fun, and no you don't have to give up your first born if you're paid to do photography.

I can't speak for anyone else, but getting paid for your work is an amazing feeling. For me, it's a validation of what I do as a photographer. I love that by simply doing and sharing what I love, I can support myself and my family. Some people get into it for the money, and some do it for the love of doing it that just happen to get paid to do it. Many people love your work. Do they love it enough to pay a lot for it?