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Settings for indoor/night hand held shooting w/o flash

El_Pistoffo

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I'm trying to set up a night/indoor w/o flash photo preset for my Lumix ZS20 while being hand held. My initial urge is to do it while in program mode and basically set a minimum shutter speed of 1/60. I'm not sure on how high I should allow the camera to go on ISO. 800, 1600, 3200? As far as aperture, I was figuring to leave that to the camera to decide. The goal is to shoot pics when hand held without flash and avoid motion blur without having to stand still like a statue for very long. With the higher ISO I know to expect some noise but that the trade off I figure.

I meant to post this in the beginners forum, my goof.
 
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Could you please clarify? In the beginning of your post you are saying without flash then towards the end you are saying with flash.
 
WIth a small-sensor digicam, aperture is NOT that much of a factor; even wide-open, the lens will have adequate depth of field for most social photography situations. SO yeah, the shutter speed is the main thing to worry about. 1/60 is a decent and "safe" speed, but...it is also a fast enough speed that it's costing you two full ISO steps...

If you can hand-hold 1/15 second, you'll not have to go to ISO 3200 with the lens wide-open, but instead can be at 800 ISO.

I have a feeling that at ISO 800 the image quality is "acceptable", and that at ISO 3,200 the image quality is what you'd call "acceptable in an emergency, but looks crappy".

Your goal is to decide where the image quality cutoff lies in terms of ISO level... so, think carefully about 1/60 or 1/40 or 1/30, maybe even 1/25 second...
 
This is one of those "how long is a piece of string?" questions that has a "depends" sort of answer. I am not very familiar with this camera, so I am not sure how well it is going to perform in low light situations. Also, there are so many night/indoor scenarios that it is hard to say a certain setting is always going to work.

I can tell you that a properly exposed image is much easier to clean up than an underexposed image, so you will need to push the ISO as high as you need to in order to get proper exposure. There is a tendency to avoid high ISOs due to noise, and this just ends up with a horribly noisy image from underexposure. Crank the ISO up and see what you get. I am sure at 3200, you are going to be getting a fair amount of sensor noise, but if that is the proper exposure, then you have to use it. By switching to ISO 1600 and thinking to reduce noise, you are reducing your exposure by a full stop, and if ISO 3200 is the correct exposure, you are just going to be making it noisier.

You are correct in thinking that you want to minimize the ISO for any correct speed/aperture/ISO combination that gives the correct exposure, but you will be hurting yourself more by underexposing than by getting the correct exposure with a higher ISO.

You can also look to work better lighting into the scene if you do not want to use your flash. I am guessing that you are not happy with the results you are getting with your on-camera flash, which is perfectly understandable... we all hate on-camera flash! :)

Good luck!!!
 
WIth a small-sensor digicam, aperture is NOT that much of a factor; even wide-open, the lens will have adequate depth of field for most social photography situations. SO yeah, the shutter speed is the main thing to worry about. 1/60 is a decent and "safe" speed, but...it is also a fast enough speed that it's costing you two full ISO steps...

If you can hand-hold 1/15 second, you'll not have to go to ISO 3200 with the lens wide-open, but instead can be at 800 ISO.

I have a feeling that at ISO 800 the image quality is "acceptable", and that at ISO 3,200 the image quality is what you'd call "acceptable in an emergency, but looks crappy".

Your goal is to decide where the image quality cutoff lies in terms of ISO level... so, think carefully about 1/60 or 1/40 or 1/30, maybe even 1/25 second...
Thanks for the guidance. It kind of goes with what I figured would be the case. I'll have to experiment a bit with the ISO and shutter.
 
This is one of those "how long is a piece of string?" questions that has a "depends" sort of answer. I am not very familiar with this camera, so I am not sure how well it is going to perform in low light situations. Also, there are so many night/indoor scenarios that it is hard to say a certain setting is always going to work.

I can tell you that a properly exposed image is much easier to clean up than an underexposed image, so you will need to push the ISO as high as you need to in order to get proper exposure. There is a tendency to avoid high ISOs due to noise, and this just ends up with a horribly noisy image from underexposure. Crank the ISO up and see what you get. I am sure at 3200, you are going to be getting a fair amount of sensor noise, but if that is the proper exposure, then you have to use it. By switching to ISO 1600 and thinking to reduce noise, you are reducing your exposure by a full stop, and if ISO 3200 is the correct exposure, you are just going to be making it noisier.

You are correct in thinking that you want to minimize the ISO for any correct speed/aperture/ISO combination that gives the correct exposure, but you will be hurting yourself more by underexposing than by getting the correct exposure with a higher ISO.

You can also look to work better lighting into the scene if you do not want to use your flash. I am guessing that you are not happy with the results you are getting with your on-camera flash, which is perfectly understandable... we all hate on-camera flash! :)

Good luck!!!
You are correct. I don't like to use flash unless it is absolutely necessary. IF I'm going to take a picture of a group of friends is one thing. They are close to the camera and wont mind the flash. Taking a picture inside say a temple or during a show, the flash isn't an option.

I'm going to have to better test the abilities/limits of this camera.
 
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Low light, no flash, indoor photography is a 'battle' with the exposure triangle. At least that's how I think of it.

Assuming you are photographing people, reasonably still (standing, talking), 1/60th shutter speed will work for many of the shots, but there will be times that you'll end up with someones' hand blurred, especially if they 'talk with their hands'. Semi-posed for a group shot, 1/60th should work, but there will always be somebody with eyes closed, or not smiling, or in some kind of less-than-desirable pose. Some people are touchy about their nose and photographs that make that too prominent are a no-no. In short, whenever I take group shots, I take at least 5, more like 10, in rapid succession (as fast as I can press the shutter button), and then pick the one that came out the best. Of course, having a longer focal length (zoomed out), you may need to go with faster shutter speeds to stop camera shake and/or people that move too fast. Unfortunately, looking at the images on the LCD after they're taken won't reveal any subject motion or camera shake unless significant. If you can go to the venue ahead of time and take some test shots, it would be advantageous to see how slow you can go.

It's all about light. And having a wide aperture, if not maximum, then close to it, is required. I don't know how a Lumix camera behaves, but at large apertures, say f2.8 and larger, the depth of field gets pretty thin, and can result in some people in a group shot being in focus and others not. Let's say you decide you need f4.5 for a 'reasonable' DOF at 15 feet. Maybe the Lumix does better in the DOF department, I don't know.

But once the two 'critical' factors are decided, then it's time to set the ISO to get a decent exposure. Let the meter in the camera be your guide...at least as a starting point. Then take a shot or two. Look at the results. Over exposed? Under exposed? Adjust the ISO to compensate....up to whatever limit you've pre-determined the noise level is no longer acceptable.

Lets say ISO 1600 is about as high as you want to go (I have no idea what the practical limits are for your camera). You may find that even at ISO 1600, the meter is showing under exposed and/or the results on the LCD are clearly too dark. Here's where the 'battle' comes in. Now then, you have a choice of how to get 'more light' to the sensor...wider aperture (thinner DOF), slower shutter (maybe some blurring), or higher ISO (more noise). Pick one. Pick two. Maybe a little bit of all 3. I've tried them all. Most often, I'm happy with slowing down the shutter speed and getting maybe a blurred hand movement in an otherwise all sharp picture. But when you're at 1/60th and slower, the non-blurred pictures get hard to come by. At 1/20, maybe 1 in 15 are OK. Yes, 1 in 15! at 1/10th, maybe 1/20-25...and that's with the camera on a monopod and me leaning against a pillar! The slower you shoot, the more shots you'll need to take, just to get a keeper!

I've found that experience is the best teacher in low light. I've tossed hundreds, if not thousands of low light shots because of over/under exposure, subject blurred, camera moved, too high an ISO, you name it. Hey, at least it's not the 'good old film days with ASA 64 (ISO) considered 'high speed'. The solution is get used to it and take lots of pictures to choose from, or upgrade equipment until you get what you want. Better have lots of money for upgrading.
 
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Low light, no flash, indoor photography is a 'battle' with the exposure triangle. At least that's how I think of it.

Assuming you are photographing people, reasonably still (standing, talking), 1/60th shutter speed will work for many of the shots, but there will be times that you'll end up with someones' hand blurred, especially if they 'talk with their hands'. Semi-posed for a group shot, 1/60th should work, but there will always be somebody with eyes closed, or not smiling, or in some kind of less-than-desirable pose. Some people are touchy about their nose and photographs that make that too prominent are a no-no. In short, whenever I take group shots, I take at least 5, more like 10, in rapid succession (as fast as I can press the shutter button), and then pick the one that came out the best. Of course, having a longer focal length (zoomed out), you may need to go with faster shutter speeds to stop camera shake and/or people that move too fast. Unfortunately, looking at the images on the LCD after they're taken won't reveal any subject motion or camera shake unless significant. If you can go to the venue ahead of time and take some test shots, it would be advantageous to see how slow you can go.

It's all about light. And having a wide aperture, if not maximum, then close to it, is required. I don't know how a Lumix camera behaves, but at large apertures, say f2.8 and larger, the depth of field gets pretty thin, and can result in some people in a group shot being in focus and others not. Let's say you decide you need f4.5 for a 'reasonable' DOF at 15 feet. Maybe the Lumix does better in the DOF department, I don't know.

But once the two 'critical' factors are decided, then it's time to set the ISO to get a decent exposure. Let the meter in the camera be your guide...at least as a starting point. Then take a shot or two. Look at the results. Over exposed? Under exposed? Adjust the ISO to compensate....up to whatever limit you've pre-determined the noise level is no longer acceptable.

Lets say ISO 1600 is about as high as you want to go (I have no idea what the practical limits are for your camera). You may find that even at ISO 1600, the meter is showing under exposed and/or the results on the LCD are clearly too dark. Here's where the 'battle' comes in. Now then, you have a choice of how to get 'more light' to the sensor...wider aperture (thinner DOF), slower shutter (maybe some blurring), or higher ISO (more noise). Pick one. Pick two. Maybe a little bit of all 3. I've tried them all. Most often, I'm happy with slowing down the shutter speed and getting maybe a blurred hand movement in an otherwise all sharp picture. But when you're at 1/60th and slower, the non-blurred pictures get hard to come by. At 1/20, maybe 1 in 15 are OK. Yes, 1 in 15! at 1/10th, maybe 1/20-25...and that's with the camera on a monopod and me leaning against a pillar! The slower you shoot, the more shots you'll need to take, just to get a keeper!

I've found that experience is the best teacher in low light. I've tossed hundreds, if not thousands of low light shots because of over/under exposure, subject blurred, camera moved, too high an ISO, you name it. Hey, at least it's not the 'good old film days with ASA 64 (ISO) considered 'high speed'. The solution is get used to it and take lots of pictures to choose from, or upgrade equipment until you get what you want. Better have lots of money for upgrading.
You points are all very valid. I realize I may be asking for a lot out of a point and shoot camera, albeit it's a better than your average point and shot. This is basically intended a as take-around small travel camera. Reason I also choose this camera was for its ability to shoot pretty good 1080p video plus a great 20x zoom and at a really inexpensive cost. Before I had to switch between picture camera and video camera (GoPro) and that got old really quick. This is my compact all in one. I have a better Lumix LX7 which is superior in many aspects but I use it primarily for UW video, and I'd rather not trust my wife hauling that camera around everywhere considering it's more pricey. She has a habit of losing them.

I see myself eventually getting DSLR but the bulk of it would not suit me for every situation, especially light travel.
 

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