So, we demo'd 6Ds over the last week, and ugh, what was Canon thinking

[Derrel]

$2099 is $600 more than the D600? O_O

Ummm, I think what he meant is that right now, the Nikon D600 can be had with the 24-85mm AF-S VR Nikkor zoom lens, and a free memory card, and a free shoulder bag or monopod, and free shipping, from a number of vendors, for $1996 to $1999. So, in effect, Nikon is GIVING AWAY a "free" $599 zoom lens, and has also discounted the body price by $100...the savings are being listed as $700 for the kit. And that $700 discount does NOT include the value of the free accessories like the shoulder bag, or monopod, or memory card! Oh...and the 6D has no flash either, so that's another few hundred dollars the user needs to spend.

The way it actually shapes up is that Nikon is discounting the D600 in a VERY,very big way. Europe and Japan are in economic recession, and the USA's economy is not doing so hot either. Nikon is trying very hard to boost unit sales, while it seems that Canon is doing basically, money-grabs with the 5D-III's pricing and the 6D's pricing.

 

[fjrabon]

I've held both, and it's smaller (like the 60D) and has the layout (like the 60D). The handling and feel are not nearly identical to me. It's more like a fancy 5DII vs. a fancy 60D. :/

But regardless, the sheer image quality of the 6D is pleasantly surprising and makes me happy that at least Canon didn't skimp on the meat of the camera.

I honestly can't tell the difference between its image quality and a 5DII. I guess maybe it measures better, but not in a real world applicable way, or at least that's what I found.

Like I said in the original post, i guess 60D owners would be happy with this upgrade. The other issue is that they're just getting ripped off comparatively. I CANNOT understand why this camera is $700 more than the D600, and $400 more than the 5DII.

I guess I just really wanted to love this camera and for us to change over to it before the studio really picks back up. maybe I'm being a bit unfair to it.

$2099 is $600 more than the D600? O_O

I'm just going by stuff I've seen both online and while handling the camera at a local camera store.

Canon 6d v.s. 5d mark III lowlight testing

Canon 6D and 5DMk3 Noise Comparison for High-ISO Long Exposures

I've played with the camera and from looking at those samples and from seeing the 5DII files I have to think that you must have a very good 5DII if the 6D y'all are using is closer to it and than the 5DIII. And even DXO Mark rated it higher and as everyone knows they are the end-all-be-all so it MUST be true. lol

Are you sure you're not trying hard to not like anything about the camera? I'm only being half serious. When I am very disappointed in something I tend to want to despise even it's best qualities.

But in the end, there's nothing I can do about being comparatively ripped off, so I'm going to go with the flow instead of stressing over something I can't change. It's either a 5DIII or it's a 6D and light modifiers, or a new lens investment, or a 1D Mark III. To someone who doesn't have a lot of money, $700 more for a 5D Mark III is a lot of money.

Just like people are complaining about the D600 because it just wasn't as good as they wanted, but are also complaining about the D800 because it is too much camera. I was flabbergasted when I went to a Nikon forum and saw that they were ragging on the D600. I think that it's not the camera makers' faults as much as the market is just super spoiled.

I will be honest and say I didn't really test them in extremely low light, but that's simply because I don't ever shoot in very low light for work. A dark basketball gym is about as dark as we get, and the 5DII never had ISO issues in that sort of scenario. So perhaps the 6D is a world beater high ISO wise, I honestly wouldn't know, because that's not how we'd ever use it.

I can tell you we all looked over a lot of files, and pure image quality wise, we just simply couldn't tell the difference between the 6D and 5DII at normal sizes. I appreciate what DxO mark does, but at the same time, after about 80 on their scale it just seems like it's academic for full frames. To my eyes, all the modern full frames from Nikon and Canon I've used have good enough image quality to be practically indistinguishable for all ordinary use. The D800 is kinda crazy if you pixel peep, as is the 5DIII, but that's about it.

As far as 'having a really good 5DII' goes, we have 25 of them, so I don't think we managed to get the luckiest batch of 25 ever, haha.

I honestly was really excited when we got our 6Ds in to demo. Perhaps that was really the issue, that I was just hoping for too much. I was honestly expecting that the purported differences between the 6D and the D600 had been exaggerated.

 

[TexasTea]

I'm pretty impressed with how hard you're ripping on the 6D. Sure, it's not a 5DIII but we're talking a different ballpark of camera. Body alone is a substantial step in price. I migrated from the 7D over to the 6D recently and haven't once looked back. Since this is a hobby for me, I can't justify ponying up the extra cash to buy a 5DIII right now. So the 6D was an awesome change for me. And the weight argument blows my mind... 5DII to the 6D would be an improvement no question.

 

[rexbobcat]

I honestly can't tell the difference between its image quality and a 5DII. I guess maybe it measures better, but not in a real world applicable way, or at least that's what I found.

Like I said in the original post, i guess 60D owners would be happy with this upgrade. The other issue is that they're just getting ripped off comparatively. I CANNOT understand why this camera is $700 more than the D600, and $400 more than the 5DII.

I guess I just really wanted to love this camera and for us to change over to it before the studio really picks back up. maybe I'm being a bit unfair to it.

$2099 is $600 more than the D600? O_O

I'm just going by stuff I've seen both online and while handling the camera at a local camera store.

Canon 6d v.s. 5d mark III lowlight testing

Canon 6D and 5DMk3 Noise Comparison for High-ISO Long Exposures

I've played with the camera and from looking at those samples and from seeing the 5DII files I have to think that you must have a very good 5DII if the 6D y'all are using is closer to it and than the 5DIII. And even DXO Mark rated it higher and as everyone knows they are the end-all-be-all so it MUST be true. lol

Are you sure you're not trying hard to not like anything about the camera? I'm only being half serious. When I am very disappointed in something I tend to want to despise even it's best qualities.

But in the end, there's nothing I can do about being comparatively ripped off, so I'm going to go with the flow instead of stressing over something I can't change. It's either a 5DIII or it's a 6D and light modifiers, or a new lens investment, or a 1D Mark III. To someone who doesn't have a lot of money, $700 more for a 5D Mark III is a lot of money.

Just like people are complaining about the D600 because it just wasn't as good as they wanted, but are also complaining about the D800 because it is too much camera. I was flabbergasted when I went to a Nikon forum and saw that they were ragging on the D600. I think that it's not the camera makers' faults as much as the market is just super spoiled.

I will be honest and say I didn't really test them in extremely low light, but that's simply because I don't ever shoot in very low light for work. A dark basketball gym is about as dark as we get, and the 5DII never had ISO issues in that sort of scenario. So perhaps the 6D is a world beater high ISO wise, I honestly wouldn't know, because that's not how we'd ever use it.

I can tell you we all looked over a lot of files, and pure image quality wise, we just simply couldn't tell the difference between the 6D and 5DII at normal sizes. I appreciate what DxO mark does, but at the same time, after about 80 on their scale it just seems like it's academic for full frames. To my eyes, all the modern full frames from Nikon and Canon I've used have good enough image quality to be practically indistinguishable for all ordinary use. The D800 is kinda crazy if you pixel peep, as is the 5DIII, but that's about it.

As far as 'having a really good 5DII' goes, we have 25 of them, so I don't think we managed to get the luckiest batch of 25 ever, haha.

I honestly was really excited when we got our 6Ds in to demo. Perhaps that was really the issue, that I was just hoping for too much. I was honestly expecting that the purported differences between the 6D and the D600 had been exaggerated.

Ah. Most comparisons are referring to the ISO performance at either long exposures or ISO over 3200, as in the 6D keeps up with the 5DIII at least up to there and the 5DII keeps up to the 5DIII up to there somewhat (I think?).

And I shoot at ISO 3200/6400 a lot with my 60D so knowing that the 6D trumps the 5DII in at least that aspect makes it a winner in my book. I just can't jump on board the whole "it costs more, it has better features, it must have a better sensor" boat. I understand that the 5DIII should be a top tier contender, but meh, I have a hard time believing that the 6D "is as bad as" the 5DII. I've never really been that impressed with the 5D Mark II though, I think because everyone touted it as this incredible thing but when I finally got around to using it I was kind of not blown away. It was good, just not as good as I expected. The 6D was the opposite, although I was desperately hoping that the 6D had at least as good as sensor as the 5DIII and I think it does from what I can tell. If I was making like $30k a year I would love to have a 5DIII with a 6D as backup, but I'm making at most $5k so I have to really plan out camera gear purchases and budget accordingly.

I guess it depends on what a person needs vs. what they can afford. For the the money I say on the 5DIII I can buy a 1D Mark III and still have a 6D lol.

But yeah, I know that that the general pretentious wisdom is "the camera doesn't make the photographer" or whatever but I've always been a technology junkie so just owning and using the technology gives me some kind of enjoyment regardless of what I'm using the equipment for.

 

[Derrel]

Cameras are tools, as well as instruments of profit-making and revenue stream to their manufacturers. The actual capabilities that a specific camera model has can, at times, make it a real PITA to work with, or the capabilities can make the camera handle great, shoot great, and allow it to deliver fantastic results. "Some cameras" are what the British call, "well-sorted", meaning that the features and controls and capabilities are well-balanced, thoughtfully arranged, and designed to work well. One of the single-biggest issues I have seen in cameras over the last 35 years is how well **changes** are received by the installed user base. This new placement of the 8-way controller INSIDE OF the rear control wheel??? Whoa....now that is a dubious move, in my estimation...

The direction-pad, AKA the "joystick" that Canon stole from Nikon back in the 30D era...well...they ditched that on the 6D. Nikon too, has been "simplifying" the rear-of-camera Autofocus AREA AND AF-MODE controls; the D4 and the D800 now have dumbed-down controls, and are designed to allow the camera to do what the photographer used to do on the D2 series. The D3 series omitted one AF-MODE setting compared to the D2 series bodies, and now, the D800 and D4 have gone to basically dummy mode, with even less control! Canon ditching the joystick button entirely, and making a dual-function control location??? VERY dubious as far as finding acceptance with the prior generation users...buuut...progressively simplifying seems to be the way to appeal to the "upgraders", coming from simpler cameras. Both Nikon and Canon are following a similar conceptual design path.

Anyway...one of the things I like about reviews like that from fjrabon is that he did not pay for a 6D himself...he is just USING it...he doesn't have that infatuated, rose-tinted-glasses love for the 6D, which comes through in owner reviews. Basically...it's an economy body...with a good sensor, and a crippled AF system, and a new control layout that is designed to, I think,appeal more to casual users and "upgraders" coming from APS-C Canons than to experienced Canon buyers who are used to 5D or 1-series models. Like the new-generation Nikon's, the keyword in body design seems to be to make the cameras more-simplified...so that newbies will think, "Hey, this camera is for ME!", and buy it!!! The camera makers need to sell cameras!!!

 

[fjrabon]

I'm pretty impressed how hard OP is ripping on the 6D. Sure, it's not a 5DIII but we're talking a different ballpark of camera. Body alone is a substantial step in price. I migrated from the 7D over to the 6D recently and haven't once looked back. Since this is a hobby for me, I can't justify ponying up the extra cash to buy a 5DIII right now. So the 6D was an awesome change for me. And the weight argument blows my mind... 5DII to the 6D would be an improvement no question.

The weight argument simply depends on what lenses you're putting on it. A lot of users like a balanced weight. And when you're putting really heavy glass on the end (like a 70-200 f/2.8), many users prefer a more beefy body. Sure, it's a preference, but it's a pretty common preference. It's certainly not like a mind blowing revelation about full frame cameras. I mean the whole reason a lot of people put a grip on their camera is to give it a more substantial feel and better balance.

Also, the 6D wasn't purposefully made that light as much as they were forced to use a plastic top plate for the GPS and WiFi, which wouldn't work well with a magnesium top plate. That's probably the biggest reasons for the lightness of the 6D.

My point wasn't that the 5DII is better than the 6D, but that it isn't remotely a clear upgrade. For people who work with them, the 1/180 max sync time, lack of a sync port PLUS no on board flash is just a really weird combination. It forces you to ONLY use hot shoe based flash control. I get not having a sync cable port, and I get not having a built in flash, but I DO NOT even remotely understand not having either.

The build quality is just better on the 5DII. Perhaps that's a trade off you're willing to make for the lowered weight, but the 6D isn't even referred to as weather sealed, because of its plastic top plate.


Again, I don't think it's an awful camera, I just think it missed its mark on either price or performance. In an isolated world where there were no competitors to it, outside of Canon's own line, maybe it's okay. Even then it just sort of creates a weird spot IMHO. It's more expensive than the 5DII, but not leaps and bounds better, despite being 5 years newer. I think as long as you can buy relatively new 5DIIs, I think it will create a lot of very confused Canon buyers.

I was really hoping we'd get something that was comparable to the D600, especially given it's more expensive. And to me, this camera just isn't. Will it be the end of the world? Nah. Perhaps it'll force the studio I work for to buy a 1DX or a few more 5DIIIs that they wouldn't have otherwise bought, and then maybe all will be forgiven, haha.

 

[fjrabon]

to say one thing I said, but perhaps got lost, is that the center focal point is really good. I guess when Canon made all the claims about the vastly improved AF system, they were only referring to the center point. I can totally see a lot of photographers just shooting loose, using the center point on EVERY SINGLE SHOT and then cropping for composition in post or focus locking with the center point and re-framing (which approach obviously depending on DoF issues).

I tend to move my focal point around a lot, and having only one usable focal point was a BIG let down for me on the 6D. Maybe that's coloring some of the rest of my review. But only because of how hyped up this new AF system on the 6D was.

Basically the center point is amongst the best any camera has. The others are amongst the worst that any camera has, near unusable, even in moderate light (like a gym). But the center point is really good. and I like how the ISO button has a dimple in it for easy adjustment while your eye is in the viewfinder. I like that a lot.

Another thing to consider is that I always disliked the 60D as well (while I loved the 7D). Maybe that has to do with it, as this is more a grown up 60D than a full frame 7D.

 

[fjrabon]

This new placement of the 8-way controller INSIDE OF the rear control wheel??? Whoa....now that is a ​

dubious move, in my estimation...

The direction-pad, AKA the "joystick" that Canon stole from Nikon back in the 30D era...well...they ditched that on the 6D. Nikon too, has been "simplifying" the rear-of-camera Autofocus AREA AND AF-MODE controls; the D4 and the D800 now have dumbed-down controls, and are designed to allow the camera to do what the photographer used to do on the D2 series. The D3 series omitted one AF-MODE setting compared to the D2 series bodies, and now, the D800 and D4 have gone to basically dummy mode, with even less control! Canon ditching the joystick button entirely, and making a dual-function control location??? VERY dubious as far as finding acceptance with the prior generation users...buuut...progressively simplifying seems to be the way to appeal to the "upgraders", coming from simpler cameras. Both Nikon and Canon are following a similar conceptual design path.

I'd be okay-ish with the D-Pad being moved to where it was, not happy but okay, if it wasn't inside the danged aperture control ring. Canon's aperture control ring system was near unusable enough, with the constant worry of bumping it while you're shooting. Now it's been rendered completely unusable if you move your focus point around at all. It's impossible to not bump the ring if you're using the D pad. So now, all changes in aperture require a flick of the lock switch off, moving the ring, then locking it back. Why did I change to dual command wheels to begin with? It literally feels like I'm back to shooting with a D3100. In fact, I think you can make the argument that holding down a function button to adjust aperture is actually easier than having to lock and unlock it every time.

 

[Derrel]

The 6D seems to be a camera that is NOT especially "well-sorted". Polycarbonate top plate, no weather sealing, no PC outlet to hook up a flash sync cord up to, only a single SD card slot, a fairly slow top flash sync speed of 1/180 second, NO built-in flash commander, and NO pop-up flash...man...it's a really stripped-down body...hard to believe Canon sees it as a competitor for any number of Sony or Nikon models. But then again, if a person wants or needs higher-end features, then a person is free to spend $3,499 to buy a Canon 5D Mark III. I think Canon realizes that this camera has just enough for the price point to make it a good value for a certain segment of the market. Being the sales leader, Canon doesn't feel much pressure to offer real value. Nikon, being #2, but desiring to move up to the #1 slot, is now offering a FREE $599 24-85mm VR zoom lens and, arguably, a better-featured camera, for the same basic price of right around $2k.

Canon OTOH, has built-in Wi-Fi. Hipsters love Wi-Fi. Even the word...they love the word "Wi-Fi"!

 

[fjrabon]

The 6D seems to be a camera that is NOT especially "well-sorted". Polycarbonate top plate, no weather sealing, no PC outlet to hook up a flash sync cord up to, only a single SD card slot, a fairly slow top flash sync speed of 1/180 second, NO built-in flash commander, and NO pop-up flash...man...it's a really stripped-down body...hard to believe Canon sees it as a competitor for any number of Sony or Nikon models. But then again, if a person wants or needs higher-end features, then a person is free to spend $3,499 to buy a Canon 5D Mark III. I think Canon realizes that this camera has just enough for the price point to make it a good value for a certain segment of the market. Being the sales leader, Canon doesn't feel much pressure to offer real value. Nikon, being #2, but desiring to move up to the #1 slot, is now offering a FREE $599 24-85mm VR zoom lens and, arguably, a better-featured camera, for the same basic price of right around $2k.

Canon OTOH, has built-in Wi-Fi. Hipsters love Wi-Fi. Even the word...they love the word "Wi-Fi"!

True story, our CEO's eyes lit up when he heard built in Wi-Fi and GPS... Until he found out that it wasn't so that the cameras could be tracked in real time.

 

[Overread]

I think its just more that you don't like the entry level midrange bodies that Canon puts out. Canon has been active in introducing the 60D and the 6D as cheaper bodies for the middle of their price range, because they've had to push up the upper price limit for that market in the 7D and 5DMIII. So to cope they split the midrange into two distinct segments, lower and upper. From your position you're not a lower market user, so you have to take the hit of the price rises and go for the 5DMIII if you want to upgrade.


The points raised about simplification are worrying to me. I find that many companies try to simplify in the same way, by making the item (whatever it is) do far more automatically and then by hiding away all the advanced controls in menus and option lists and even dreaded optional optional lists*. Touchscreen is also another "streamlining" feature that they like to pair with this menu driven setup. The problem is, for the user who has more than a passing experience and who has a desire for more control, the unit becomes increasingly harder and harder to use.

Heck all those "easy" bridge and point and shoot cameras are a nightmare to use if I want to do anything specific beyond pointing and shooting.

Honestly I hope Canon and the other brands keep this idea aimed at entry level and let the advanced level bodies keep those buttons. I don't want touchscreens and endless menus slowing me down or getting me lost or being things I have to memorise so I can control the unit without having to chimp the whole time.


*the ones you have to enable in options before you can see the additional options they have

 

[fjrabon]

I think its just more that you don't like the entry level midrange bodies that Canon puts out. Canon has been active in introducing the 60D and the 6D as cheaper bodies for the middle of their price range, because they've had to push up the upper price limit for that market in the 7D and 5DMIII. So to cope they split the midrange into two distinct segments, lower and upper. From your position you're not a lower market user, so you have to take the hit of the price rises and go for the 5DMIII if you want to upgrade.


The points raised about simplification are worrying to me. I find that many companies try to simplify in the same way, by making the item (whatever it is) do far more automatically and then by hiding away all the advanced controls in menus and option lists and even dreaded optional optional lists*. Touchscreen is also another "streamlining" feature that they like to pair with this menu driven setup. The problem is, for the user who has more than a passing experience and who has a desire for more control, the unit becomes increasingly harder and harder to use.

Heck all those "easy" bridge and point and shoot cameras are a nightmare to use if I want to do anything specific beyond pointing and shooting.

Honestly I hope Canon and the other brands keep this idea aimed at entry level and let the advanced level bodies keep those buttons. I don't want touchscreens and endless menus slowing me down or getting me lost or being things I have to memorise so I can control the unit without having to chimp the whole time.


*the ones you have to enable in options before you can see the additional options they have

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense on both your points. I was sort of hoping for a workmanlike camera that was full frame with little that I didn't need. What I got was a camera with lots of crap I don't care about, and all the stuff I really want skimped on.

 

[Derrel]

SNIP> I was sort of hoping for a workmanlike camera that was full frame with little that I didn't need. What I got was a camera with lots of crap I don't care about, and all the stuff I really want skimped on.

Ummmm, yeah....uh-huh. Basically, the 6D is NOT designed as a camera for the working photographer. It's...just...not designed for that segment of the market. Your dissatisfaction with the D-pad and other missing features just shows how far off the mark the camera is,compared to what you want, and expect, and are used to. Your disappointment with the 6D is a pretty clear indicator that it's not targeted at people like you.

http://www.brooksbrothers.com/on/de...B&gclid=CJqN89Kco7QCFUxxQgodcHYAPQ&&WT.srch=1


http://www.carhartt.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/HomeView?storeId=10051&catalogId=10101&fullsite=

 

[fjrabon]

SNIP> I was sort of hoping for a workmanlike camera that was full frame with little that I didn't need. What I got was a camera with lots of crap I don't care about, and all the stuff I really want skimped on.

Ummmm, yeah....uh-huh. Basically, the 6D is NOT designed as a camera for the working photographer. It's...just...not designed for that segment of the market. Your dissatisfaction with the D-pad and other missing features just shows how far off the mark the camera is,compared to what you want, and expect, and are used to. Your disappointment with the 6D is a pretty clear indicator that it's not targeted at people like you.

Brooks Brothers Classic Clothing & Apparel Store


Welcome to Carhartt

Ha, I was thinking more in terms of :

51OC8uKQuNL.jpg

v.

polo-shirts.png

haha

 

[rexbobcat]

Does this mean that as a photographer who works that I can't do a good job with the 6D because it's not designed for that purpose.

Well son of a b-

Do I also need certification from the PPA before I can become a real full time professional?

Why does nobody tell me these things ahead of time?