SO, you just got a new DSLR.

[Overread17 5]

Yup, still deliberately deciding to talk about different things while pretending to be talking about the same things, purely in order to keep the yelling going.

Hurrah for the internet.

How so? Do you think a kit lens is sufficient or that a photographer does not need a flash? Because that is what the OP says. And that is the part that I disagree with.

But the OP isn't talking about a photographer, he's talking about a beginner.
You've average person just starting and not really going for the job at the end of the week. For the average beginner just getting started the kit lens is sufficient and they've enough to learn about with regard to exposure without confusing things with flash (and heck most entry level camera bodies have a flash in them anyway).

 

[Kerbouchard]

Yup, still deliberately deciding to talk about different things while pretending to be talking about the same things, purely in order to keep the yelling going.

Hurrah for the internet.

How so? Do you think a kit lens is sufficient or that a photographer does not need a flash? Because that is what the OP says. And that is the part that I disagree with.

But the OP isn't talking about a photographer, he's talking about a beginner.
You've average person just starting and not really going for the job at the end of the week. For the average beginner just getting started the kit lens is sufficient and they've enough to learn about with regard to exposure without confusing things with flash (and heck most entry level camera bodies have a flash in them anyway).

You can't be serious? The built in flash doesn't count. The built in flash is crap and you know it. Now I am starting to wonder who is playing Devil's Advocate...

 

[Overread17 5]

Couple a built in flash with a snoot and you've got a fairly capable flash for macro work - and heck the head on that is about the same size as the one on my macro Twinflash.

But honestly as a beginner did I need a flash? Maybe, but heck if you gave me one back then it wouldn't have improved much. I'd have made exactly the same mistakes as I did with the popup flash. Yeah after some time, after getting to know the camera and getting used to it - then I was more ready to be able to advance to adding a new controlling light source into my scenes and to start balancing that with the exposures.

You seem convinced that anyone can pick up the camera - master it in a week and be ready for anything two weeks later (ok time frames exaggerated). Different people learn at different rates and heck most people here are hobbyists - learning in the short gaps of free time that they get through the week. They might miss out a whole week of learning to shoot (and just snapping if they take any shots at all). You're a fast learner - but not everyone is.

 

[Kerbouchard]

Couple a built in flash with a snoot and you've got a fairly capable flash for macro work - and heck the head on that is about the same size as the one on my macro Twinflash.

But honestly as a beginner did I need a flash? Maybe, but heck if you gave me one back then it wouldn't have improved much. I'd have made exactly the same mistakes as I did with the popup flash. Yeah after some time, after getting to know the camera and getting used to it - then I was more ready to be able to advance to adding a new controlling light source into my scenes and to start balancing that with the exposures.

You seem convinced that anyone can pick up the camera - master it in a week and be ready for anything two weeks later (ok time frames exaggerated). Different people learn at different rates and heck most people here are hobbyists - learning in the short gaps of free time that they get through the week. They might miss out a whole week of learning to shoot (and just snapping if they take any shots at all). You're a fast learner - but not everyone is.

There is just one adjustment on a flash that matters, and that is exposure compensation. Other than that, you put the camera in manual and let the flash figure out the rest. If it's not right, you adjust exposure compensation, rinse, and repeat. Dude, I know we have had our disagreements, but honestly, this isn't complicated.

You get to look at every shot after you take it. If it's too bright, adjust exposure compensation. If it's too dark, adjust exposure compensation. If the flash can't do it, adjust shutter speed or ISO. Heck, maybe even throw in an aperture adjustment.

You have 4 settings...ISO, aperture, Shutter Speed, and exposure/flash compensation. You also have the added benefit of getting to see every shot after you take it.

Honestly, 4 variables with instant verification...it's not that complicated. Take into account that several of those variables are determined by the conditions and it becomes even less complicated.

 

[mjhoward]

This is silly. With a base DSLR and a kit lens of course you are limited. Can you make great shots with those...sure, but that doesn't mean you aren't limited.

It doesn't mean you ARE limited either. I don't know of many landscape photographers that require a flash. I've also never seen any beginners comming to the forum complaining that their photos look like crap and decide to spring for a flash.... No they spend money on a faster more expensive lens and still wonder why their photos look like crap, which was precisely the OP's point. THOSE beginners WEREN'T limited by their equipment, they were limited by their lack of knowledge and experience. For some reason, you keep arguing against non-existent comments.

 

[Kerbouchard]

This is silly. With a base DSLR and a kit lens of course you are limited. Can you make great shots with those...sure, but that doesn't mean you aren't limited.

It doesn't mean you ARE limited either. I don't know of many landscape photographers that require a flash. I've also never seen any beginners comming to the forum complaining that their photos look like crap and decide to spring for a flash.... No they spend money on a faster more expensive lens and still wonder why their photos look like crap, which was precisely the OP's point. THOSE beginners WEREN'T limited by their equipment, they were limited by their lack of knowledge and experience. For some reason, you keep arguing against non-existent comments.

Okay, fine. You want to talk about landscape photographers. You are saying a tripod or filters don't extend their options? Don't be silly.

 

[mjhoward]

There is just one adjustment on a flash that matters, and that is exposure compensation. Other than that, you put the camera in manual and let the flash figure out the rest. If it's not right, you adjust exposure compensation, rinse, and repeat. Dude, I know we have had our disagreements, but honestly, this isn't complicated.

You get to look at every shot after you take it. If it's too bright, adjust exposure compensation. If it's too dark, adjust exposure compensation. If the flash can't do it, adjust shutter speed or ISO. Heck, maybe even throw in an aperture adjustment.

You have 4 settings...ISO, aperture, Shutter Speed, and exposure/flash compensation. You also have the added benefit of getting to see every shot after you take it.

Honestly, 4 variables with instant verification...it's not that complicated. Take into account that several of those variables are determined by the conditions and it becomes even less complicated.

You keep describing the most basic shooting scenarios with the most basic, single flash setup in which the flash is the main light source. I'm very curious to see what kind of photographs that a self proclaimed master of photography such as yourself has produced. Care to share your portfolio?

 

[Overread17 5]

It is a lot easier to work and balance with 3 variables than it is with 4. Heck most beginners start out balancing only 2 variables and mostly leaving the ISO alone (ie leaving it on a low setting typically). You have to start out small otherwise you've got 4 variables - each one you could adjust to correct what is purely an exposure problem. Each one has its own effect on the final result and its not until you learn the ins and outs of them all that you'll know which is the better to adjust in any one given situation for the shot you want (unless you honestly don't care, but then at that point you'd be in full auto).

Also exposure compensation on the flash is only part of the battle with flash. It works most of the time until you're in a lighting situation where the exposure readings are somewhat variable, the light might be fairly constant, but the subjects might be shifting around from dark to bright and thus fooling the flash meter- meaning that between two shots the flash power, without any compensation, might not be equal. Fit learning aperture, ISO and shutter speed in there too and you've a recipe for confusion.

Honestly you seem to have forgotten what it was like to learn - that or you had more preliminary research or influence before you took it seriously. Remember there are many (and heck I hold my hands I was one) who head out and the first camera they've ever used is a DSLR (well the first one they pay attention to beyond point and click).

 

[Overread17 5]

Okay, fine. You want to talk about landscape photographers. You are saying a tripod or filters don't extend their options? Don't be silly.

We are not saying that. What we are saying is that beginners - rank entry level just picked up the camera beginners. Only need a certain level of gear. They don't need to get bogged down with all the specifics because, at their point in understanding they are not yet ready to make the proper choices.

They need the experiences - heck they need to feel limited by the gear before they can really start to understand "YES this is when I need the ND filter - no wait actually I need the polarizer for its light stopping and reflection countering".

This is without even going into the debate of investing further - you can buy a lot of cheap stuff and bad ND filters bought very cheaply (or rubbishy flash units) can easily make a newbie disillusioned with them (and I can assure you very few are going to rush out and buy a £100 ND filter after just spending a massive £400!! on just a camera!")

 

[Kerbouchard]

There is just one adjustment on a flash that matters, and that is exposure compensation. Other than that, you put the camera in manual and let the flash figure out the rest. If it's not right, you adjust exposure compensation, rinse, and repeat. Dude, I know we have had our disagreements, but honestly, this isn't complicated.

You get to look at every shot after you take it. If it's too bright, adjust exposure compensation. If it's too dark, adjust exposure compensation. If the flash can't do it, adjust shutter speed or ISO. Heck, maybe even throw in an aperture adjustment.

You have 4 settings...ISO, aperture, Shutter Speed, and exposure/flash compensation. You also have the added benefit of getting to see every shot after you take it.

Honestly, 4 variables with instant verification...it's not that complicated. Take into account that several of those variables are determined by the conditions and it becomes even less complicated.

You keep describing the most basic shooting scenarios with the most basic, single flash setup in which the flash is the main light source. I'm very curious to see what kind of photographs that a self proclaimed master of photography such as yourself has produced. Care to share your portfolio?

You can easily check my posting history. Here is a hint, the threads I started are the majority of the ones I shared pictures in.

 

[Kerbouchard]

Okay, fine. You want to talk about landscape photographers. You are saying a tripod or filters don't extend their options? Don't be silly.

We are not saying that. What we are saying is that beginners - rank entry level just picked up the camera beginners. Only need a certain level of gear. They don't need to get bogged down with all the specifics because, at their point in understanding they are not yet ready to make the proper choices.

They need the experiences - heck they need to feel limited by the gear before they can really start to understand "YES this is when I need the ND filter - no wait actually I need the polarizer for its light stopping and reflection countering".

This is without even going into the debate of investing further - you can buy a lot of cheap stuff and bad ND filters bought very cheaply (or rubbishy flash units) can easily make a newbie disillusioned with them (and I can assure you very few are going to rush out and buy a £100 ND filter after just spending a massive £400!! on just a camera!")

That is exactly what you are saying. I defy anyone with any level of skill to take a photo of a milky waterfall without an ND filter and a tripod. I challenge anyone to take a photo of the perfect moment in a dark reception hall without a flash. I challenge anyone to produce a photo of the pollen on a bee in flight without a macro lens.

Look, it's simple, the reason I have thousands of dollars in gear is because I needed it. If I could have taken the same shots without that gear, I wouldn't have bought it.

 

[Overread17 5]

Look, it's simple, the reason I have thousands of dollars in gear is because I needed it. If I could have taken the same shots without that gear, I wouldn't have bought it.

We are NOT talking about YOU.

 

[Kerbouchard]

Look, it's simple, the reason I have thousands of dollars in gear is because I needed it. If I could have taken the same shots without that gear, I wouldn't have bought it.

;-)
We are NOT talking about YOU.

But I want to...

 

[Derrel]

The weird thing is, the Original Post has like "23 Likes"...which is in my experience, the MOST likes I have ever seen here for a single post...

Not sure why this post was resurrected...when it was made, it got good responses, but now it has strayed, devolved, and anarchy and gunfire in the streets after dark seems like the next step in this pathetic, downward spiral.

 

[Kerbouchard]

The weird thing is, the Original Post has like "23 Likes"...which is in my experience, the MOST likes I have ever seen here for a single post...

Not sure why this post was resurrected...when it was made, it got good responses, but now it has strayed, devolved, and anarchy and gunfire in the streets after dark seems like the next step in this pathetic, downward spiral.

This thread has been fun.