Sony A7R: Potential Gamechanger?

[Overread]

I'm surprised they didn't hold back on its launch, cram even more features into it and then launch with a larger line up of lenses that they can bring to market at the same time. I know market oversaturation is a concern but with cameras you need a couple of varied lenses to draw in different market groups.

I agree that this is likely going to be one of those cameras that comes out; makes some waves because of its new innovations and in-camera editing and sensor; but doesn't actually sell that well. Hopefully Sony know this and are planning to phase this new line in; making sure that each release is strong so that when they do have a good lens line up they've also got a past history of good reviews on the line to entice people in.

That said they could end up with a Sigma situation - high spec camera which fails to sell and simply ends up very niche market. That's ok for sigma as the lenses for their camera are simply the same design with a different mount as their Canon/Nikon offerings. For Sony offering high end lenses in a single unique mount its a much bigger risk.

I think Sony do realise that to get a slice of the pie they've got to bring more to the table than just a good camera; they've got to push the limits to really stand out against the giants.

 

[cgw]

Ongoing tests of the A7r with Sony and adapted lenses here:

SOUNDIMAGEPLUS

Shutter noise isn't apparently a deal-breaking issue for him.

 

[robbins.photo]

Ongoing tests of the A7r with Sony and adapted lenses here:

SOUNDIMAGEPLUS

Shutter noise isn't apparently a deal-breaking issue for him.

Gosh, lets see here - very first quote from this site - "I stumbled into a Nikon forum by mistake and there was more testosterone flying about than in a pile of jockstraps on a changing room floor. God did I feel a wimp buying a Sony A7 "

Oh yes, I'm certain we can rely on a nice, unbiased view from this reviewer. rotfl. Apparently your not the only one carrying around a boulder sized chip on your shoulder about Nikon. Well setting that aside, lets face facts. The A7 may prove to be something worthwhile if they can address a few of the obvious shortcomings (like the shutter noise) and produce some additional lenses for it. For right now though, I doubt there are enough diehard Nikon haters to put them over the top on sales, and frankly at the moment until they have a few lenses available it's a pretty sizeable and pretty risky investment.

 

[cgw]

Ongoing tests of the A7r with Sony and adapted lenses here:

SOUNDIMAGEPLUS

Shutter noise isn't apparently a deal-breaking issue for him.

Gosh, lets see here - very first quote from this site - "I stumbled into a Nikon forum by mistake and there was more testosterone flying about than in a pile of jockstraps on a changing room floor. God did I feel a wimp buying a Sony A7 "

Oh yes, I'm certain we can rely on a nice, unbiased view from this reviewer. rotfl. Apparently your not the only one carrying around a boulder sized chip on your shoulder about Nikon. Well setting that aside, lets face facts. The A7 may prove to be something worthwhile if they can address a few of the obvious shortcomings (like the shutter noise) and produce some additional lenses for it. For right now though, I doubt there are enough diehard Nikon haters to put them over the top on sales, and frankly at the moment until they have a few lenses available it's a pretty sizeable and pretty risky investment.

Have you shot an A7r? BTW what's this got to do with Nikon? It's the Sony board.

 

[robbins.photo]

Ongoing tests of the A7r with Sony and adapted lenses here:

SOUNDIMAGEPLUS

Shutter noise isn't apparently a deal-breaking issue for him.

Gosh, lets see here - very first quote from this site - "I stumbled into a Nikon forum by mistake and there was more testosterone flying about than in a pile of jockstraps on a changing room floor. God did I feel a wimp buying a Sony A7 "

Oh yes, I'm certain we can rely on a nice, unbiased view from this reviewer. rotfl. Apparently your not the only one carrying around a boulder sized chip on your shoulder about Nikon. Well setting that aside, lets face facts. The A7 may prove to be something worthwhile if they can address a few of the obvious shortcomings (like the shutter noise) and produce some additional lenses for it. For right now though, I doubt there are enough diehard Nikon haters to put them over the top on sales, and frankly at the moment until they have a few lenses available it's a pretty sizeable and pretty risky investment.

Have you shot an A7r? BTW what's this got to do with Nikon? It's the Sony board.

Where did I ever say I'd shot an A7r? As to the quote, found it interesting that right out of the gate, indeed much of the first page, is covered with the same Nikon hating screed I generally see you engage in - merely pointing out that when I look for reviews or thoughts on camera equipment, no matter who the manufacturer might be, the one thing I absolutely avoid like the plague is a hater.

Haters like that are beyond reason - and as such you cannot expect a reasonable evaluation from them on anything. When I look for reviews I prefer somebody who is far less over the top and emotional because I'm looking for honesty, both good and bad. I can't expect a religious zealot to give me a complete picture. The folks who's opinions I trust about cameras are the ones who will say, you know what, I shoot mostlly Nikon but I have shot Pentax too and they are a great camera. Or you know what, I prefer Canon but the latest offering from Sony is worth a look.

Last thing in the world I'd trust is opinions from people who say, you know what, I drank the koolaid and hate all other cameras.. now, let me tell you about the only brand worth owning. Sorry, pass.

 

[Derrel]

>>SNIP>>>Last thing in the world I'd trust is opinions from people who say, you know what, I drank the koolaid and hate all other cameras.. now, let me tell you about the only brand worth owning. Sorry, pass.

Here's an illustration of a typical Sony buyer's indoctrination ritual... [attachment: Sony Buyer indoctrination ritual.jpg]

 

[DiskoJoe]

I keep hearing lots of people keep making comments about sony making new lenses for this camera. This camera can use a large variety of lenses in existence already. Thats the whole beauty of E-mount with any manufacturer and not just this camera.

 

[Derrel]

I keep hearing lots of people keep making comments about sony making new lenses for this camera. This camera can use a large variety of lenses in existence already. Thats the whole beauty of E-mount with any manufacturer and not just this camera.

The same is true of many other cameras...

The camera has a BRAND-NEW lens mount, which is used by two cameras--the new A7 and A7R. Earlier Sony lens work in crop-mode. The A7 and A7R can be used with lens adapters, but as the Lensrentals.com testing shows, the image quality is good in the center of the field, but is all over the map across the frame, with very inconsistent optical performance. DSC00080_YB31_26_1_3D.jpg

"In the second image, shot at f/4, the increased depth of field seems to make up for the tilt affecting the corners. But if you look carefully there is still a significant difference in the numbers for vertical and horizontal resolutions, particularly in the middle third of the lens. Astigmatism in the lens could cause something like this, too, but this is a lens we know doesn’t have much astigmatism.So we can take away that the resolution in the center of the Canon lens adapted to the A7R is awesome. The corners are very good, but not spectacular. Why the difference between center and corners? Could be adapter. Could be sensor microsensors. Could be chromatic aberration. Could be something done during in-camera processing of raw images (these are raw shots, so no jpg conversion is taking place). In other words, I don’t know. But as with all unexpected results, we repeated the test and it was consistent."

In other words, the adapted lens provides wonky results....the top of the field is good, but the bottom is not as good. The center is awesome, the corners only very good. Keep in mind--the A7 an a7R has ALL-NEW Sony-specific chromatic aberration reduction routines, anti-vingetting routines, all-new anti-diffraction image data processing, and all-new selective noise and sharpening routines designed to process the image and determine what is "noise" and what is "data", and this is ALL dependent upon the camera relating to specific lens profiles. The A7 and A7R's incredible resolution numbers are probably based in large part on these new image-processing techniques; adapted lenses will not have this stuff done to their images.

The anti-diffraction and the new intelligent noise reduction analysis on RAW data files is some cutting-edge new stuff. I think the diffraction elimination stuff is exciting!

 

[minicoop1985]

>>SNIP>>>Last thing in the world I'd trust is opinions from people who say, you know what, I drank the koolaid and hate all other cameras.. now, let me tell you about the only brand worth owning. Sorry, pass.

View attachment 62568

Here's an illustration of a typical Sony buyer's indoctrination ritual... [attachment: Sony Buyer indoctrination ritual.jpg]

I remember my wife's indoctrination ceremony. Back in those days, it was done with a hypnotist and lots and lots of tequila. And a hedgehog.

I wouldn't trust anyone who only talks about their one camera brand either. Besides, we all know Hasselblad is the best thing that has ever existed ever anyway.

I just realized that the above sounds less like the intended satire when I think about how much I talk about my Hassie, but really, I do love that thing. I proposed. It said "Click KA SHUNK" which doesn't legally count as consent.

 

[Derrel]

This article explains part of Sony's philosophy.

'Every six months I want to do something new' Kimio Maki of Sony: Digital Photography Review

 

[gsgary]

Ongoing tests of the A7r with Sony and adapted lenses here:

SOUNDIMAGEPLUS

Shutter noise isn't apparently a deal-breaking issue for him.

Gosh, lets see here - very first quote from this site - "I stumbled into a Nikon forum by mistake and there was more testosterone flying about than in a pile of jockstraps on a changing room floor. God did I feel a wimp buying a Sony A7 "

Oh yes, I'm certain we can rely on a nice, unbiased view from this reviewer. rotfl. Apparently your not the only one carrying around a boulder sized chip on your shoulder about Nikon. Well setting that aside, lets face facts. The A7 may prove to be something worthwhile if they can address a few of the obvious shortcomings (like the shutter noise) and produce some additional lenses for it. For right now though, I doubt there are enough diehard Nikon haters to put them over the top on sales, and frankly at the moment until they have a few lenses available it's a pretty sizeable and pretty risky investment.

Rubbish most Leica lenses will work on the A7 have you seen how many different Leica lenses there are

 

[Derrel]

Ongoing tests of the A7r with Sony and adapted lenses here:

SOUNDIMAGEPLUS

Shutter noise isn't apparently a deal-breaking issue for him.

Yeah...funny thing how "ongoing tests" of this camera system are starting to reveal some very significant image quality problems. Seems like that loud, obnoxious shutter in the A7R is causing vibration issues with longer lenses, in the 1/2 to 1/100 second range of shutter speeds...according to highly-skilled, critical evaluators...people like Lloyd Chambers, for example. And the blogger you linked us to...now that he's not quite so enthralled by his new toys, he's found a serious image quality issue with the Sony 28-70 OSS zoom lens.

Maybe that loud, obnoxious mechanical shutter's actually an "issue"...because as Lloyd CHambers wrote, its vibration is reducing the detail rendered from 36MP nominally, to around 24MP in ACTUAL resolution when tripod-mounted. So, yeah, maybe this camera WILL be a game-changer: users will start clamping on 24- to 26-ounce blocks onto the baseplates of their Sony A7R cameras as counterweight to prevent shutter slap from ruining A7R photos shot off of tripods. There might be a huge aftermarket demand for elegantly engineered, pound-and-a-half of lead blocks for the Sony A7R market! Sweet!

Google this string: Sony A7R shutter vibration problem


The shutter vibration issue explained by Joseph Holmes. | sonyalpharumors
"Lloyd Chambers at DigLloyd.com, and two more of us (including myself), in separate series of carefully done experiments, have found consistent, clear and certain proof of a serious issue with the camera bouncing too much during exposures at various speeds, typically 1/100th of a second being the worst. The shutter shake seems, if anything, to be worse than when the same lens is connected to a Canon 5D II with full mirror slap. The motion is primarily in the direction of the shutter: up and down with a horizontal image and side to side with a vertical image (see samples below)."

"Further, Mike and I have shown that attaching a certain amount of weight to the camera can solve the problem completely. We are building 24-ounce weights (including the weight of a small, Arca-Swiss type screw-knob clamp, the L-plate and a metal block) to connect to the base of the camera when using longer lenses, especially when they are not native lenses with the camera connected directly to the tripod. I tested a 26-ounce weight, screwed to the bottom of the camera for horizontal exposures and found it highly effective. Mike tested a 24-ounce metal weight screwed directly to the base of the camera and it was highly effective for both horizontal and vertical camera position."

"Notice that of all the samples published on the web, there have been few, if any, longer lens captures, and the method of connection to the tripod and use of adapters can have a big impact on the result."

SOUNDIMAGEPLUS: Something odd with the Sony FE 28-70mm lens
SOUNDIMAGEPLUS: Sony FE 28-70mm Edge Softness Problems - Is this the answer?

The Sony 28-70mm f/.3.5~5.6 OSS zoom lens seems to have a wonky OSS result: HORRIBLE edge degradation of the image quality when the OSS system is set to ON, but better edges when the OSS is switched OFF. Weird...the OSS system in this lens seems to ruin images edges when it's ON.

Sounds to me like some serious engineering issues need to be worked out on this gamechanger. Just screw a 24-ounce metal block underneath the camera for all longer-lens,tripod-based work! Problem solved! And the OSS? Who knows if it's just a problem with the 28-70 OSS, or if it's an issue with other OSS lenses...I suppose time will tell.

This Sony A7R issue is one of the lessons of "annointing" a brand-new, unproven system as "the next big thing".

 

[vipgraphx]

One thing about new tech is that it is new tech. We may have to choose our style of shooting with a camera like this. Having it for about a day now I really have not been able to really test it with Christmas and all. I am having to learn how to make adjustments and what not so I can't really chime in on what those lens reviews that darrel has supplied links to.

I think that all across the internet there pixel peepers and it gets sooo crazy how everyone wants things so so sooooooo perfect. When the D800 came out there was so much talk about that and how you would have to upgrade computer and lenses and the files sizes the list goes on and on. Now folks love that same camera and nothing has changed. They have just learned how to use that camera.

This new A7 and A7r has different techknowledgey and like I said we may have to change things a bit.. Perhaps these lenses camera are to light and cause camera shake I will admit that when using the NEX 6 and doing the braketing that Shot one was clear, shot 2 was a little blurry and shot three was even more blurry even when using the timer. So if this new Sony A7 does the same then yes this could be a huge problem for someone like me who shoots HDR or actually anyone.

I will start testing more in depth tonight/ tomorrow compared to the D7100 and see where we are at from my point of view. I will admit I have had some problems thus far trying to figure things out and am hoping its a learning curve because this camera really does have some very very cool features but, what are features if image quality sucks!

 

[cgw]

A much-needed reality check:

LensRentals.com - A Bit of A7R Sanity

 

[Derrel]

A much-needed reality check:

LensRentals.com - A Bit of A7R Sanity

Additional "reality check" by one of the web's most-influential mirrorless camera bloggers, Austin-based professional commercial photographer Kirk Tuck. He basically gave the camera of the year award to the new Olympus EM-1...because the Sony A7 and A7R suck so badly...The Visual Science Lab.: The VSL Five Star Award of the Year goes to a camera I don't (currently) own. The Olympus OMD EM-1

Kirk Tuck's Visual Science Lab blog is one of the web's best resources for PRACTICAL, hands-on mirrorless camera, associated lens, and photography insights, tips, and evaluations as they relate to REAL-WORLD shooting. Kirk's the kind of guy not given to fanboy-fawning....like some people. Here's a portion of what he wrote this week, in the Year-end camera award column...

"My first thoughts were that this camera would be a wonderful partner to the Sony a99 I already own while adding more resolution, sharpness and more lens flexibility at a much lower initial price. In fact, I had liquidated my cropped frame Sony cameras and lenses in anticipation. And then the day came. I was supposed to be in the Samsung booth but before the show started I walked over to the Sony pavilion and played with the product. It was then that my whole plan began to fall apart like wet cardboard box.

My first impression was the sheer noise and intensity of the shutter. Prescient I think since we are now finding that this Howitzer inspired shutter also causes a profound lack of sharpness with longer lenses at certain shutter speeds. The feel of the body was off. The focusing much slower than that of the $600 Panasonic G6 in an adjacent display area. But the whole impression was that Sony checked the boxes they thought the power users would want (horsepower) but forgot to engineer in any élan when it comes to tactile luxury. Both the A7 cameras feel somewhat like Russian cold war manufacturing discovered plastics. (edit: from time to time the blog has visitors from other forums. Many of them have reading issues with anything that is not written in a very literal fashion. I feel duty bound to add to the above that I have spent many hours with the A7 and A7r in addition to time spent at a trade show.... I also have ready access to both cameras for testing and re-testing. ed.)


Now, let's admit that there are a number of great divides in the cult of the camera world. There are the linear rationalists and on the other side of the tug-o-war rope are the artists. One group loves metrics and provable performance while the other loves the feel and the user experience. No question which side I come down on. A camera can have all the rational stuff under the hood and still be a totally loser to operate. That would be the a7r.


Bottom line? I just can't bear the thought of buying that camera. What do I gain? A few more megapixels over my a99? But do I even get that if the recoil of the Howitzer shutter smudges away all of the sensor gains? I get a Borg camera that is ready to assimilate all the lenses but in order to use it I must bow to fully manual implementations and still understand that fluid use may be a crap shoot.

The people who love that camera are the ones who are willing to put it on a thousand dollar Gitzo tripod and then weight down the whole assemblage with bean bags. Well, I don't know about you but I spend a lot of time shooting hand held and shooting on the very edge of what might be possible. Just not going to happen with the A7r. You'll need some time to get it to focus. You'll need some time to stabilize the system before initiation and you'll need a lot of time to work with the files to get the same color you can get out of the Olympus product used in an almost cavalier mode.


I won't belabor the whole point. I read a post on Luminous-Landscape.com by a respected fashion photographer who wanted to buy the A7r based on the hype and went into a store to try one. He ended up walking out with an EM-1 and I'm pretty sure I would too. In his estimation and based on three "real world" tests he ran the EM-1 didn't just handle better in a direct comparison, it also trounced the more expensive camera (discernibly) in image quality and it was far ahead on usability. "

Uggggg--what a scathing indictment of the A7 and A7R, from the kind of influential mirrorless camera USER, Sony a99 owner and, and mirrorless camera ADVOCATE that could really help a camera succeed...Kirk Tuck basically pans the Sony A7 and A7R. And he goes on additionally, to derscribe how poorly the cameras have been designed by Sony.