Tap water

[Josh66]

Could tap water cause developer to exhaust quickly after being mixed? Like, minerals in the water or something?

I seem to be having a lot of problems lately that I've never had before. The only thing I can think of is that my water is bad all of a sudden (I know they do change up the chemicals and/or amounts they use to purify it every now and then). I've tried everything else. All of my chemicals are fresh. I'm doing everything the same as I always have, and am just now having problems.

I have only been using distilled water for the final rinse in Photo Flo, but now I'm thinking that I may have to start using it for everything... I developed a roll of T-Max 100 (35mm) today in Rodinal (1+100, 1 hour stand) - I did use distilled water for that and it looks perfect.


Yesterday (edit - no, that was this morning...), though - I developed a roll of Acros (120) in HC-110 (B) using tap water, and I didn't even bother rinsing it, it was so bad. It went straight to the trash can. I have shot a lot of Acros, and used a lot of HC-110 before. I know it's not something I'm doing different than usual...


I mainly use Rodinal and HC-110, and sometimes Xtol. I have had issues (very thin negs) with all three recently, on multiple films in both 35mm and 120. The problem does seem worse on 120 though - I'm thinking that's just because the film is bigger. The Xtol is the only one that's mixed into a working solution, so I'm kinda scared to use it now, lol. I considered dumping it and buying a new kit (only $10).

Just to be safe, it's distilled water only from here out. I'll do more testing tomorrow to see if that fixes anything.

I just wanted to check if the tap water even can kill or greatly reduce the strength of a developer before I do too many more test rolls. I mean, is that even possible? I have never had issues using tap water before, but I don't know what else it could be...
Throwing film in the trash is getting old.


Just because I know someone will ask - it is not a metering problem. I'm using three different cameras, all of which have a meter, plus a hand-held light meter. All 4 meters are consistent with each other.

If it is the water, should I be worried (about drinking it, I mean)? What could be in it that would exhaust a developer?

 

[ann]

It would be unusual, but stranger things happen.

I have used distilled water for toners and with LPN for the final rinse.

THe content of iron can effect the contrast and years ago when people moved from location to location they would find issues.

Whether this is urban myth or not, i have seen written accounts of people in the same city doing test with HC110 with the result varying. Supposely the only difference was the mileage between the testers.

Perhaps Helen will drop by and enlighten us both

 

[KenC]

I used the tap water in my house in NJ for years without any problem, and I know it was loaded with iron and chlorine (at least), and also was hard for a while until we got a water softener. I wouldn't drink it, but it didn't seem to affect the developers (HC110, TMax, D76).

 

[Josh66]

The only other thing I can think of if it isn't the tap water is that something in the water heater is leaching into the water. It's cooling down now, so I've been having to mix in a little hot water to get to 20 degrees.

In the summer I have to use refrigerated water and wait for it to warm up. I didn't have any issues then. But, I didn't have any issues last winter either using the hot water...

I'm going to develop one more roll (Rollei Retro 400S in 120) today using distilled water. If that works, it will pretty much be proof to me that something is up with my water. If it doesn't work, I don't know what I'll do, lol.

 

[ann]

Let us know what happens.

Never had that come up in my darkroom or the one at school. However, gremlins do run amuck in the darkroom at times, and it is a mystery, but that has always been with printing and in a gang darkroom 'who knows" . I do try to run a tight ship at school, but I don't stand there and watch every move students are making.

 

[compur]

Could tap water cause developer to exhaust quickly after being mixed? Like, minerals in the water or something?

I seem to be having a lot of problems lately that I've never had before. The only thing I can think of is that my water is bad all of a sudden ...

By any chance do you have one of these aerator gadgets on your tap water faucet?

They add oxygen to the water. Oxygen kills developers.

 

[Derrel]

What was wrong with the roll developed in HC-110??? I mean, what was the flaw?

I have developed literally thousands of rolls in HC-110 for personal and newspaper use, usually twelve rolls per shift, sometimes 16 rolls, sometimes 20...the keys to HC-110 are precise and accurate mixing, careful attention to timing, and making sure that the normal time/temperature lends itself to consistent results in the darkroom one is using. HC-110 "syrup" is highly concentrated stuff...how it is measured and mixed can have an impact on its actual strength...and short development times in HC-110 are a recipe for inconsistent results.

What methods were you using when this massive fail-boat pulled into the dock???

 

[Josh66]

Hmm... I think I do. That could explain it...

I wonder why I didn't have problems last winter though...?
Ah. Just had an idea. Last winter I was mixing the HC-110 into a stock solution, and diluting that. So, the volume of water I was using from the tap was less. I'm mixing it from concentrate now, so it's been almost all tap water. I didn't start using Rodinal till around June (like it a lot so far though), so I was using water from a bottle in the fridge then.

After I eat something for lunch, I'm going to develop that roll of Rollei Retro (with distilled water). If that looks fine, I think you might be onto something with the aerator.

 

[Josh66]

What was wrong with the roll developed in HC-110??? I mean, what was the flaw?

It was super thin. I don't have a densitometer or anything, but they were too thin to scan, and looked very thin to the eye. Not quite clear, but close.

I've been doing everything the same as always - the only variable I can see is the tap water and/or mixing hot & cold tap water...

Mixing from concentrate using a 10mL syringe (with 0.2mL graduations) to measure. And the same method was working fine with cold water from the fridge.

 

[Josh66]

OK, so I ended up putting it in Xtol 1+1 (15 minutes - it called for 17 minutes at 20 degrees, mine was 22.5 degrees so I just guessed and took off 2 minutes) instead of Rodinal. I used distilled water, and from what I can tell it looks fine. It's rinsing now. I'll hang it up to dry in about 10 minutes.

edit
Drying now. Looks fine. I had some pretty serious issues with this combination last time I tried it (a few weeks ago) - you could barely see the edge of the frames. There wasn't a single usable frame that time, so I just threw it away. Much better this time.
I'll do the next roll in HC-110 with distilled water to make sure that's fine too.

edit
Just did another roll in HC-110. It looks fine too.


I guess that means that there is something up with my water. Either the aerator, or something else... Oh well, I think I'm going to just use distilled water from now on anyway.

 

[Josh66]

This is what Pete V. at Kodak told me:

Generally, if the water is safe for drinking, it should be safe for photographic use. There are practical limits for water purity for photographic use and these are as follows:

• Color and suspended matter: none by appearance
• Dissolved solids: 1000 ppm (250 ppm for mixing solutions preferably)
• Silica: 20 ppm
• pH: 7.0 to 8.5
• Hardness (CaCO3): 40 (preferable) to 150 ppm
• Copper, iron, manganese: 0.1 ppm (each)
• Chlorine, as free hypochlorous acid: 2 ppm
• Chloride: 100 ppm
• (etc.)

This is a partial list of the most common impurities. You can check with your local water authority as to which of these limits has been surpassed and see if they can recommend the best filtration system to meet your needs. Generally, filters with a porosity of 15 microns are effective for incoming water supplies.

I know the water plant here changes chlorine levels sometimes as the incoming (to the plant) water quality changes. Not sure what it is now though... Not sure if chlorine specifically is the problem (that's just the only one on the list that I know for a fact changes periodically). I am sure that the tap water IS the problem though. Distilled water fixed all of my problems. I doubt that it's the aerator, because if it was it would have given me problems before now (it's always been there).

Just thought I would post the safe levels for photographic use in case anybody was interested.

 

[ann]

Thanks for the update.

I have heard stories about the water changing within the same city but miles apart that seem to be responsible for differences in development, but thought perhaps it was an urban myth thingy.

 

[DannyD]

Thanks for the update.

I have heard stories about the water changing within the same city but miles apart that seem to be responsible for differences in development, but thought perhaps it was an urban myth thingy.

My experience is the same. I have never seen problems using tap water for preparing developpers.

 

[Cruzingoose]

When I first moved to SD a few yesrs ago and got my darkroom up and running, I was absolutely at a loss as to the inability to have B&W, C-41 or RA4 developers work. My film and paper would come out with only the slightest hint of an image. I figured my stock just did not make the move from the East coast and spoiled for some reason. I bought fresh chems and paper and still no good. After hours of disgust, I fired up the distiller and made some water. Extra careful measuring from new chems and fresh paper and all was beautiful and working well. Retried "city water" and nothing again. Same chems and paper but no images.

So now I run my Midi-Still and make a 5 gallon batch of water, stored in an antique glass water cooler jug and mix my developers using this water. It seems that there is no effect on stop, bleach or fixer using city water. The only water test I have done is the test strip from the local Culligan Guy. Ph is 9+, Off the scale in mineral content, but not hard water as bar soap foams up just fine. No trace of chlorine or flouride or VOCs. And the funny thing is, the water taste good.

Bottled steam distilled water is easily available and if used just for developers is cost effective. I live on the great prarie miles from nowhere so it is cheaper to make my own.

 

[Josh66]

My film and paper would come out with only the slightest hint of an image.

That's exactly what was happening to me. The change seems to have happened recently though - it wasn't always like that. I have a batch of Xtol that I've been scared to use since I mixed it with tap water. I don't know if that was before or after the water changed though.

I have been meaning to test it, but don't want to sacrifice a roll for it (if I had any bulk film left, I would load up a couple 12 exposure rolls). I think I'll put a leader in it and see how long it takes to turn black. I think I read somewhere that a good starting time is 3 times the time to turn a leader black. Does that sound right?