The Coffee House

[Gary A.]

On the front of the LA Times special Olympics section has a photo White, 3/4 of the page of him 180 degrees inverted grabbing the board with her left hand and his body seems like he's merely taking a walk in the park. When Gary grows up he wants to be the next Shaun White.

 

[Cortian]

I know a number of people with degrees who are either working in lesser fields, unrelated fields, or minimum wage jobs, ...

We had 'em where I worked.

...but every one I know in the trades has a good job and a decent income...

Yup.

As one skilled tradesman put it to me one day "When times get tough there may be little call for Social Sciences majors, but when your plumbing's stopped-up you gotta have that plumber." Or when your electricity goes haywire. Or your "check engine" light lights. Or your roof starts leaking. Or... or... or...

This last recession was a prime example. News story after news story with people in line at job fairs filling out apps for minimum wage jobs, any job, because their unemployment benefits were about to run out and there was no call for name-an-advanced-degree people.

Never saw any interviews of plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics or other skilled trades types in those stories.

Btw: That skilled trades guy (don't recall what he was out here for) was set to retire, debt-free, in about five years, I believe he told me. ISTR he was somewhere in his mid-to-late-40s? Owned his home, out-right, too.

I'm not even going to touch the whole school loans subject. That line of discussion can go nowhere good

 

[smoke665]

Not dissing those that work at a job that gives them satisfaction. If that floats your boat great, but for me "work satisfaction" was not that important, as I found satisfaction in other things. What was important for me was earning a good living, and retiring early. I was a Vol. FF&FR for many, many years, didn't pay me a dime, but I found it extremely fulfilling, while having no bearing on career goals. Point is, we each have the opportunity to make choices about how our life goes, and once those choices are made we learn to live with it as best as we can.

 

[Gary A.]

Gary sees life much differently than smoke665 ... Gary spends too much time at work for it to be unmeaningful beyond wages. Whence a job becomes work, (mentally unsatisfactory), Gary would find something else to do. The amount of money, while always important, was never the first or final criteria for employment for Gary.

 

[Cortian]

I'm with Gary on that one. Now it happened that, in the last several years, I burned out and found little fulfilment in my job. But I was close to retirement, so I toughed it out.

But, in general terms, I agree with Gary: I spent far too much of my life doing what I had to do to keep a roof over my head to be doing something other than what I found to be satisfying work.

 

[Gary A.]

Gary thinks he has lived a much richer life, but most likely with less material goods, by combining money and job satisfaction into a single goal (looking at minimums as opposed to maximums) than if he had separated the two.

Gary also thinks that people in the U.S. do not give the trades their proper respect and due. While college/higher education is an admirable goal ... it isn't a be-all-end-all for everybody. (I have, at a minimum, equal respect for master trade people as I have for my college professors. In fact, Gary has more respect for those who do, than those who never have done ... yet talk about it.

 

[Gary A.]

I know a number of people with degrees who are either working in lesser fields, unrelated fields, or minimum wage jobs, ...

We had 'em where I worked.

...but every one I know in the trades has a good job and a decent income...

Yup.

As one skilled tradesman put it to me one day "When times get tough there may be little call for Social Sciences majors, but when your plumbing's stopped-up you gotta have that plumber." Or when your electricity goes haywire. Or your "check engine" light lights. Or your roof starts leaking. Or... or... or...

This last recession was a prime example. News story after news story with people in line at job fairs filling out apps for minimum wage jobs, any job, because their unemployment benefits were about to run out and there was no call for name-an-advanced-degree people.

Never saw any interviews of plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics or other skilled trades types in those stories.

Btw: That skilled trades guy (don't recall what he was out here for) was set to retire, debt-free, in about five years, I believe he told me. ISTR he was somewhere in his mid-to-late-40s? Owned his home, out-right, too.

I'm not even going to touch the whole school loans subject. That line of discussion can go nowhere good

That is precisely what happened with Mary Lou. She switched schools from the #1 academic public high school in California to Adult School. Yes, she made significantly more money, but she was miserable and literally counted the days to retirement.

 

[Gary A.]

There are a lot of good things about living debt free.

 

[waday]

There is another option, of course, but it requires a leap of faith. You could always strike out into business on your own...I'm not sure what field of engineering you are in, but I know that my friend who is a civil engineer was able to do it. He had to specialize, and his work seems kind of boring (I think he sub-contracts surveying crews and develops cost-estimates for construction companies who do road rehabilitation), but his hours are flexible and he is much happier than he was before.

I'm environmental/water resources (depends on the day ). I don't know if I could do that now, but it'd be interesting. IMO, I'd need a few more connections to be able to do that...

I appreciate your response, and I'm glad it worked for you and your employers.

Worked well enough, anyway

Manufacturing, engineering or both. Initially in engineering positions. The last 25+ years as an IT geek. Companies have always been small. Employer from which I retired, last year, had ±200 in my facility. Perhaps double or triple that number, world-wide? Some have been as small as a few dozen employees.

I had people for years try to convince me to strike out on my own, as an independent consultant. But a man's gotta know his limitations. I'm not well-self-motivated and my focus tends to wander. (E.g.: Started a Man Cave project last fall. It encountered speed bumps. Then photography came along. Haven't worked on it since about... November?) That can work "ok" when you're salaried and you've so much on your plate (see: "more than their money's worth," earlier) there's never any want for variety. Not so good in a consulting role.

I was never interested in working for Really Big Companies. I had more than one try to steal me from wherever I'd been working at the time. Funny thing was: Oft times the guys pitching coming over to them were the very same guys who expressed envy over how I had it at my job It worked for others. Like consulting: It would not have worked well for me.

Really big companies have their pros and cons. Cons are that you get lost in a sea of other people. Pros are that you get lost in a sea of other people. If work is low all-around, having tons of other people in the same situation as you can be a good thing.

AFAIK all trades [which offer certification] require post-secondary education. The difference is that the program is typically structured such that you do your first year of school, work your first 5000 hours, wash, rinse, repeat until you've got your Red Seal or other certification. The advantages are three-fold; (1) generally the tuition is lower, 'though not always a lot; (2) the study/work/study/work program generally allows people to work in higher paying fields (even a labourer on a construction site makes decent coin) between tuitions; and (3) I know a number of people with degrees who are either working in lesser fields, unrelated fields, or minimum wage jobs, but every one I know in the trades has a good job and a decent income...

So many people get pushed into thinking that they need to be a professional, when they'd be much happier, and more successful, in a trade. I love that these programs require significant field training. That's something that's missing from a lot of the graduates that I've seen start in my field.

 

[smoke665]

Gary sees life much differently than smoke665 ...

That's why I started the post with "Not dissing those that work at a job that gives them satisfaction. If that floats your boat great". As I said I knew from an early edge that work (of any kind) was not what was going to float my boat. All the things that probably would have given me satisfaction didn't pay well (beach bum, mountain man, etc), just kidding. I was fortunate to learn early in life that my personality was such that I needed separation in my life. If I'm doing something I enjoy, without time limitations, I will go till I burn myself out. Having a career that provided the income and time to enjoy other things in life worked well for me. Not saying it's for everyone, just worked for me.

I have to agree with you about the Trades not getting the respect they deserve. Fifteen years ago I had OTR drivers earning 50k plus with 2 years experience, others with more experience and squeaky clean records were bumping 75k, A college education is not the solution to all ends, and counselors are doing a disservice to young people today if they don't point out all the options.

 

[tirediron]

[So many people get pushed into thinking that they need to be a professional, when they'd be much happier, and more successful, in a trade. I love that these programs require significant field training. That's something that's missing from a lot of the graduates that I've seen start in my field.

Yep... it's great that Billy-Bob University Graduate can give me the square route of a pickle jar; a shame he doesn't know how to open it! I think all higher education should require some sort of experience/internship/OJT as part of the graduation requirement. Too many people get out into the real world with their degree and expect it to be like university....

 

[davidharmier60]

My main job from around 18 years old to around 53 was the repair of pressure washers. I was pretty darn good at it.
But now all the stooping and squatting has taken a toll.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

 

[smoke665]

Yep... it's great that Billy-Bob University Graduate can give me the square route of a pickle jar; a shame he doesn't know how to open it

Case in point my daughter in law graduated many years ago after 5+ years in school with a major in English. Again, I'm not knocking any degree, but she didn't find many opportunities knocking at her door, so she became a retail store mgr, for a couple of years. Then on a whim went to a trade school for dental assistant, which she enjoyed and worked at, until she finally became a stay at home Mom.

Unfortunately I believe most don't realize there is a difference between doing something you "are good at", and doing something that fulfills you. Sometimes it works out they are the same, sometimes they can be two entirely different things, and sometimes people are afraid to make the choice.

 

[SquarePeg1]

In other news, I made my plans for my first round of golf for President's Day because the forecast has been downright spring like.

Naturally...the weather men are now discussing the possibility of 4 or more inches of snow Saturday into Sunday. Meh.

Still no snow requiring more than a quick sweep away with a shovel thanks to trading in the Beast for Beauty. She sits in the garage with her full tank of gas, a virgin still.

Re college costs - as the single mother of a HS freshman, it’s all I think about!

My cousin’s son was in his first semester of an engineering degree at Wentworth when he told his parents to save their money (50k/year), he’d decided to become an electrician and had secured an apprenticeship and was dropping out. At first they were livid about the choice to skip college after all the hard work to get in and the money they’d already paid but in the end it was his choice and they had to accept it. He has been hard at work for a few years now and is very happy and they didn’t have to spend their retirement money on his education.

I could retire right now if I had universal healthcare and didn’t have to put Princess through school. These next 10 years of work will be all about making sure she graduates from college without massive debt to pay off and topping off my travel money.

The job satisfaction vs salary choice was taken away from me when I got divorced and my ex decided to stop earning money and not pay any child support. I have no regrets about prioritizing money over job satisfaction.

 

[Cortian]

Still no snow requiring more than a quick sweep away with a shovel thanks to trading in the Beast for Beauty. She sits in the garage with her full tank of gas, a virgin still.

If I'm reading that correctly: Snow blower upgrade? Yeah, that happened to us, last season. The new snow blower finally got use last week, though.

Re college costs - as the single mother of a HS freshman, it’s all I think about!

Everybody's got to do what's best for them, but my feeling is that people thinking they must have a college degree to get ahead in life is wrong. What's even worse is people thinking they're automatically entitled to one, merely by existing.

My cousin’s son [story snipped for brevity...] has been hard at work for a few years now and is very happy and they didn’t have to spend their retirement money on his education.

Good on him!

The neat thing is that not only will his parents likely retire comfortably, now, but he likely will, too. Electricians often make very good money.