Thom Hogan: Products fighting each other: OK

[pixmedic]

I think people get tunnel vision when it comes to new tech.
We get so focused on things like image quality, ISO, AF, and lenses....you know, the "important things", and we kinda forget about the more subtle features that aren't always headlined in a review, yet affect how and what we shoot in actual use. Things like viewfinder coverage, button placement, battery life. ...

For me, it's dual command wheels and built in focus motors.
Those are my biggest "must haves" on a dslr since I got my first D100 back in 2004. For other people though, those things are just a minor feature.

I think it's the same thing for mirrorless cameras. They are reletively new to the game and there's always going to be people excited over the new technology.
It's certainly progressed pretty fast, so maybe it's just a matter of time before the performance of the mirrorless cameras catch up to DSLR's. It wasn't THAT long ago when full frame mirrorless was just a dream...now sensor tech has caught up.
It will be interesting to see just how far the mirrorless envelope can be pushed, and what it does to the dslr market in the long run.

 

[Scatterbrained]

If Sony comes up the ergonomic grip for ff mirrorless, I will considering buying it to shoot sport.

-

You are right, Scatterbrained, sports or action photography is an area where the d-slr cameras have a signifiant lead. Oddly enough tecboy but sports is the one area I would not recommend getting a mirrorless for. Any type of shooting requiring super fast, accurate auto focus is still the one place DSLR's hold an advantage over mirrorless. Hopefully this will change as on sensor focusing improves. There are pro photographers out there using mirrorless to shoot sports and it is possible to do so, but you will most likely have a higher keeper percentage with a DSLR. Here is a good article that list some of the pros and their cameras.


10 Amazing Sports Photographers Who Use Mirrorless Cameras on the Job

The speed of the focusing isn't an issue (at least with the Sony A7RII). The tracking isn't really an issue either. The issues are with the EVF.

1) Viewfinder lag. What you are seeing already happened. The lag isn't huge, but it's there and can be frustrating when trying to capture peak action of a movement only to just miss it. Especially if you're used to nailing it.

2) Viewfinder refresh after a shot. Each time you take an image the viewfinder blacks out, then comes back. Not a big deal most of the time, but a major issue when trying to track and photograph people or things moving quickly and erratically.

You forgot to include the absolutely HORRIBLE battery life that an EVF camera has--due to the EVF sucking juice to perform the most basic task a camera does: showing what the lens sees. Check out the dPreview review of shooting a Seattle Seahwaks game with theSony A7R-II series camera, a camera which required THREE fully charged batteries to eke out 700 frames over the course of a football game!That is simply pathetic battery life, and it's why virtually all sports shooters who cover major league sports use Canon and Nikon d-slr cameras.

Keeping up with the big boys? Shooting pro sports with the Sony a7R II

I loved this quote: "Would I rely on it for a second or third body at a sporting event with a client and money on the line? No, not yet, but I'm looking forward to the day that I would."

"In practical use at a nighttime NFL football game, the camera struggled."

Yeah....impressive as hell. NOT! THREE batteries, to eke out 700 frames? My God, that is pathetic! Focus that let him down. EVF refresh rate lag that made following action challenging. A camera he'd not consider as a second body, and even worse, one he would not even consider as a THIRD body?

Switching to the lower end, check out the comparison on soccer of a Nikon D5500 versus a Sony RX10 II on NCAA women's soccer.Can a Sony RX10 II keep up with a Nikon D5500 on the soccer field?

I loved this one: "The Nikon D5500 outperformed the Sony RX10 II in every way possible, when it came to shooting soccer."

As the author wrote,"1/10th of the images I shot with the RX10 11 were marked as selects," yet two-thirds of the Nikon d-lsr images his partner shot, at the same game, were marked as selects. So...ten percent success versus 66 percent success rate?

They must have been doing a lot of chimping to only get 700 shots out of 3 batteries. Granted the battery life isn't great, but batteries are small, light, and cheap. The number of people sitting on the sidelines of an NFL game shooting for pay is a rather small percentage of us, and with 42mp of resolution they aren't the people the A7RII is targeting. That he was able to shoot an NFL game at all is really saying something. Beyond that, it seems that the reviewer rather fond of the camera to even be willing to try it at an NFL game. To play the quote game with the same article

The a7R II is a highly-specc’d piece of photographic technology, with some new and exciting abilities. It's the first camera of its kind to ever even attempt to use its native phase-detect AF system to focus non-native, even off-brand lenses. And to do so, technically, with potentially more accuracy than those off-branded lenses might focus on their native DLSR bodies*. And with a wider spread of phase-detect AF points than any DSLR too, which allows for more creative framing while maintaining continuous AF.

That certainly doesn't sound bad to me.

Let's be fair though. For portrait shooters, wedding, event, and newborn photographers shooting moving subjects with fast, shorter primes, the a7R II is a gem, leading to typically higher 'hit' or 'keeper' rates than DSLRs even. Eye and face tracking autofocus options can ultimately lead to a superior way of focusing that doesn't require you to keep your selected AF point over your subject, which would otherwise drastically reduce compositional freedom and creativity.

Doesn't sound like he's condemning it here to me either. The overall tone of his conclusions mirrors my own feelings, that the A7RII is a camera that, while not exactly the best for sports, is quite competent everywhere else.


Have you ever shot one? I have both an A7RII (shooting adapted Canon glass with a Metabones adapter) and a Canon 1Dx. Even with adapted glass the camera performs amazingly well. I've shot both cameras side by side in demanding situations. The Sony may not be able to compete AF wise with the Canon in the most demanding situations, but it's pretty damned good in most other situations.

Is it the right camera for shooting NFL or NBA? No. It'll handle everything else with aplomb though. All while delivering amazing files to boot.

 

[Solarflare]

Are there not enough companies doing them now?

Why does it matter if there are many offers if not a single one of the offers is good enough ?

Personally, I think the main reason nikon and canon have not seriously jumped on the mirrorless bandwagon is mostly because it would interfere with their entry level DSLR sales. [...]

... you dont say ! That was my point in the OP. Thats what this thread is supposed to discuss.

 

[Derrel]

You own a Sony, so I'd expect you to vigorously defend it and ignore its deficiencies, even for demanding users. Seems like you did not actually bother to ready the article which discusses the real problems Sony still has in its new camera series.


"Overall, though, the a7R II’s Flexible Point setting proved to be the most effective way to target, track and focus on a subject in a sporting environment during my shooting with the a7R II. Which makes it all the more unfortunate that its practical use is hindered by the lack of direct AF point selection. It is also worth noting that the a7R II seems to have a strange bug when used in any continuous focus mode: when holding down AF ON and switching between subjects that are more than several meters apart in depth, all of the lenses that I tested on the camera occasionally refused to refocus. The only remedy was to let off pressure of the AF ON button and re-press to 'reboot' continuous focus when framing up a new subject."

Shi++y design it would seem...

"Lock-on AF didn't prove reliable enough in my testing to track my intended subject. I found myself re-designating my subject constantly – which was frustrating and distracting. Lock-on AF also tends to fall apart in continuous drive - as soon as you actually start shooting, the camera often reverts to depth-based subject tracking only which, as we witnessed in WIDE mode, isn't reliable either."

GREAT!!! NOT....

"The alpha-series is missing a major, physical control point that is indispensable for sports (and arguably all) photographers: a multi-controller direct toggle for dedicated focus point relocation while shooting on the fly. In the era of shrinking cameras, the a7R II inhabits a middle ground that feels great when equipped with short glass, yet awkward when paired with longer lenses. The Sony 70-400mm F4-5.6 G SSM is especially uncomfortable. The coupling of a long 'throw' for moving from 70mm to 400mm and a stiffly-damped zoom ring pushes the lower right corner of the a7R II’s body design into your palm's pressure point."

OUCH-! A basic AF tool that is missing--an AF focus point toggle button, Jeebus Chrimeny..is this a poiint and shoot for wealthy middle aged men who cannot figure out how to use an AF area controller?


" Three frames per second is so slow that it's not really useable – and certainly no fun – for fast action. The seconds tick by when buffering (while the a7R II is set to Raw + JPEG), even when using a 1000x SD card. In addition, the buffer must completely clear before viewing images in playback mode. It is also worth noting that as of late 2015, long lens availability on the a7R II is minimal, with the most importantly absent being the sports action standard field of view offered by a 400m F2.8. Adapted glass is an option, but you'll lose Zone AF, Expand Flexible Point, Eye AF, and Lock-on AF. "

CLEARLY, Sony's mirrorless flagship lacks a number lof BASIC stuff that Canon and Nikon figured out a decade ago...

I demo's the A7 when it came out...sluggish, noisy shutter, crappy viewfinder...it sounded great! I went in ready to buy one. Within a 15 minute demo, it was clear, the A7 series has been designed for tripod mounted work, not portraiture, not fashion, not action, not sports. Sony has a ways to go to catch up to FUji in terms of viewfinder EVF quality. THe A7 series is clearly well below the D3x I shoot...it's just an inferior machine...with almost no lenses for the system. I have a big system from 400,300,200 primes, down to 20mm...I have no need for an upstart system when the Nikon system is juts so vastly more mature and developed.

 

[pixmedic]

Somehow I forgot my conclusion.

I'm just not holding my breath when it comes to Nikon or Canon making mirrorless systems that can compete with their DSLRs.

As much as I dont like them - Apple shows how to dominate a market successfully.

If the market is photography, and more specifically, digital photography. ....
How are Canon and Nikon NOT dominating the market successfully?
Who has a bigger digital share of the camera market than Canon and Nikon?
Maybe they just feel that they don't NEED mirrorless options...maybe they are leaving something for the small fish in the pond.

 

[f/otographer]

the A7 series has been designed for tripod mounted work, not portraiture, not fashion, not action, not sports

Derrel, this is patently wrong. The only place an a7 cant keep up with top of the line DSLR's is sports due to the current Auto focus tech of doing it on the sensor, along with the EVF refresh rate. But as it has been stated, pro sports photographers are a tiny, tiny part of the pro shooters in the world. So to damn the camera outright for something it really isn't designed for is silly. For any other type of photography the a7's are top notch tools. There are many pros using the a7 for all sorts of photography. Here is a great article showcasing the work of just some of the phenomenal photographers who made the switch to the a7 series.


Who are the Professional Photographers who Switched to the Sony A7 Series?


Somehow these guys manage to work with a camera you describe as having a "Shi++y design" while being "sluggish", with a" noisy shutter and crappy viewfinder". Looks like they are able to create incredible works of world class art with it. Take a look at the work of Will Chao, Christian Marcel or Trey Ratcliff and then tell me again how they are shooting with an inferior camera. The a7 might not be the camera for you, but to spew such vitriol about a camera that others are producing such beauty with is ridiculous.

 

[f/otographer]

And I'm sorry, but that comment about the a7 having a crappy viewfinder is wrong....just wrong. I shoot with the original a7 and have done so for 2 years with no reason to upgrade because the camera still rocks. The EVF in my a7 is freaking awesome and blows away any optical VF I ever had in my Canons, the 5d and 40D both. If anyone would like to view my work with the a7 then you may do so here on flickr in my a7 folder.


α7

 

[tecboy]

Well, the good thing about the evf is protecting your eye against the harmful UV ray during the day. In dslr, you have to see through the lens. That can be harmful.

 

[thereyougo!]

I don't think that the A7RII is ready for sport. Whether they will be able to do anything about this via firmware I don't know. I still feel that there is too much latent snobbery amongst some against mirrorless. I've stopped shooting with DSLR, and am shooting with the A7RII and the medium format Pentax 645Z.

Sure, the results from my Pentax are better, but I'd be niffed if they weren't. It cost more than twice what the Sony did. Is it good enough for most of my uses? Sure. I don't shoot action very much and if I did, the refresh in the EVF would bother me, I'm sure. But for the rare time that I do shoot fast, I just have as good an idea as I can where the subject is in the frame.

The simple fact is that you always try to pick the best tool for the job, and do the best you can with it. You won't always be able to get the best out of it, and it won't always be the limitations of the camera that hold you back. If my main genre was sport and action I would not have the equipment I have.

Those that suggest that professionals do not use mirrorless need to take their dark glasses from their faces. Many do. Including this guy: Joe Cornish. He shoots with a few different cameras including film. One of them is the A7R

Welcome | Joe Cornish Gallery

 

[Derrel]

A TOP NOTCH TOOL that has perhaps less than 1 percent of the serious camera market? Riiiight.... Sony as an entire camera-selling company has what, 12 percent of the camera sales market over the last two years, has three lens lines, and a handful of optics. What i SOny's installed user base? it is teeny-tiny. Sony is like the Prius of the auto industry. Prius owners remind me of Sony fanboys.

Sorry, but there are many reasons Canon and Nikon are #1 and #2 in the camera sales market, and why they are a solid 1 and 2 in installed user base, and why d-slr cameras sell in hugely higher numbers than new mirrorless cameras that have limited lenses and tiny, brand-new, limited distribution, mini-systems.

I would LOVE to see Sony's tilt-shift lineup.

I would love to see Sony's multi-focal length macro lineup.

I would love to see Sony's Defocus Control Lenses.

I would love to see local availablity of RENTAL gear in Sony mount, anywhere in the world, but it's almost totally absent at walk-in retail level, so one can just go, rent,use, and return without a 30-day lead time to a 10-day lead time.

I have to say, the Sony fanboys seem willing to talk a lotta' sh*+ about how awesome their 2-year-old camera system is.it becomes pretty easy to delude yourself into thinking that one's lastest new acquisition is the be-all, end-all, and then to name four or five people for whom such a camera is adequate. You know, while ignoring the millions of people who went with the actual, leading, established, mature products from the world-wide leaders.

Seriously....you want to call an upstart system a "top-notch tool"? Go right ahead.

 

[f/otographer]

Derrel, your fail post is fail. The only fanboyism is see is you foaming at the mouth wanting to convince everyone how bad the a7 is. Can you please point to the doll and show us where the a7 touched you?

I am really curious though. Why is it so important for you to downtalk what other photographers choose to use as their tool? The a7 system is a top notch tool for me and many other photographers. Oh, and Sonys tilt-shift line up? How about every tilt shift lens every made. Sonys macro lineup? Every macro ever made. Defocus lenses? Yep, you guessed it. Every one ever made. Unless of course you are such a crappy photographer that you cant shoot without auto focus then some manual focus lenses might give you trouble, but there are plenty of EOS lenses that can be adapted if you must have auto focus. But seriously, who uses AF for macro or tilt shift work. Lol. Lol. Lol.

And I have no idea where you live, but just a few months ago I rented an a7 II in Sacramento for a job I did in San Francisco. It was easy peasy lemon squeezy.

And Derrel, seriously....do you think the scope of a single article covered every professional photographer using mirrorless? Hahhhahahah! Literally, tears in my eyes.

 

[f/otographer]

You know Derrel, I have been sitting here trying to wrap my head around your post in an attempt to understand your position so we can have some type of reasoned discourse on this. You seem to be coming from a position of belief that Canon and Nikons positions as market leaders and #1 and #2 in the industry is somehow an immutable truth that can never change. I would like to ask you a question...do you honestly believe that Canon and Nikon will always be the top two companies from now until the end of time, with no chance that market trends can be missed or missteps can be made or that some competitors may one day get an upper hand? If so then I don't see how we can continue a discussion because this idea is absolutely ridiculous and for someone to seriously believe it shows a complete lack of understanding in both the most basic of business acumens as well as the free market/capitalism system we operate in.

For example, Sony has just designed and brought to market a 100mp sensor for the new Phase One full frame Medium Format digital back. This files coming from this thing are absolutely gorgeous and the detail is astounding. Keep in mind, this is in a camera that is shipping right now.


Phase One announce world’s first medium format camera with 100 Megapixel Sony sensor! | sonyalpharumors

Could Canon have produced this sensor right now? Doubtful, but its possible. They are working on a high mp sensor for both DSLR's and surveillance cameras but I dont think they are close to production. Furthermore I dont believe that if they could they would do it for somebody else. More likely they would have kept their grubby little hands on it, slapped it in a DSLR and proceeded to launch it with much fanfare. Sony, on the other hand, designed this and gave it to somebody else.

How about Nikon? Could they produce such a sensor? Not a snowballs chance in Hades. Nikon is having enough trouble trying to get other people to put sensors in Nikon DSLR's. This doesn't bode well for them....at all.

Sony is flexing its sensor production muscle right now and kicking sand in Canikons face at the beach. How will this play out in the future? Who knows. But Canon and Nikon better not just sit back and think Sony isn't a threat. That's what Blackberry and Palm thought about Apple and Google. Where is Blackberry now? Oh yeah, they are making an Android phone. And Palm....lol.

 

[Braineack]

Pro competition capitalist pigs.

using tapatalk.

 

[Derrel]

I love Sony fanboys. Their brand-new system is already sooooooooo supoerior to ANYthing on the market. The two-year R&D period Sony did has made thew world's most-amazing camera. " Evar! " Unfortunately, the system aspect of it is lacking. As is the resale market, the rental market, and the customer confidence in anything Sony makes.

Again, feel free to list four or five people, or heck, even SIX people, who recently switched to Sony's new, little A7 system , but IGNORE the few million working professionals who shoot Canon or Nikon d-slr systems. Seriously, dude? Get an argument.

F-tographer...look through a Nikon D3x and see what a FANTASTIC viewfinder looks like. Seriously pally, do it, then get back to me. You are utterly clueless as to what the term "top notch" actually means.

 

[Derrel]

THE ENTIRE CAMERA-MAKING WORLD MUST GO TO MIRRORLESS NOW!!!!!


















(Just ask anybody who recently bought a new Sony or Fuji.)