To people who shoot in full manual most of the time...

[Joves]

Well Im in the manual and aperture priority depending on what the shot requires. I dont fint scrolling two wheels at once all the difficult in manual to get what I want. I use Aperture when it is a partly cloudy day and, the subjects light level is getting changed every few seconds. Which happens alot in N.Az some days. I cant tweak the setting fast enough at times.
I have nothing against programmed modes or, P for other people but for me it doesnt work.

 

[Hawaii Five-O]

my canon Ae-1 program is manual so I don't have much choice, but on my digital camera and my Elan 7e I've been using AP mode lately.

The AE-1 program made me learn though:hug::

I think for the old timers, like in the 70's, manual camera usage was like second nature because that's all they had, so they could make adjustments pretty quick to capture a picture of any type.

 

[Battou]

my canon Ae-1 program is manual so I don't have much choice, but on my digital camera and my Elan 7e I've been using AP mode lately.

The AE-1 program made me learn though:hug::

I think for the old timers, like in the 70's, manual camera usage was like second nature because that's all they had, so they could make adjustments pretty quick to capture a picture of any type.

The AE-1 P does have a shutter speed-priority, but I would not trust it to save me life.

 

[Bifurcator]

Originally Posted by Bifurcator
For over and under no. For the basic off of grey, yes. The over and under is in-brain and translates to thumb movements that adjust either the aperture or the shutter depending.

Why not meter off your grey card.... adjust for the 6% difference between your grey card and camera meter.... lock that calibration in a priority mode and fire away all night long?? That way if there are any hot spots in the field(at night) or cloud variables in the day you don't even have to worry about it. If you are grey carding before each shot I concede.

Umm, because there is no such feature on a camera? That would be a dream if there were tho! Seriously, try it. Meter off the grey card, set your aperture in aperture priority mode and then point the camera at something white, now black. Totally different and actually wrong readings right? OK, so if you do that and then point it at a black horse the riders small (in proportion to the horse) face isn't going to affect the meter as it should and will likely be blown out. Same with his white jockey uniform. Now zoom up on the jockey, the white uniform overpowers the metering and the detail of horse's main at the bottom of the frame gets squashed completely in dead blacks. Actually this should be a shutter priority example, but it's the same difference.

There is no mode besides manual on a commercially available dSLR that will let you keep your grey metering as you're suggesting AFAIK. Unless they came up with something new I don't know about? Quite possible. There is some specialty stuff on the horizon where focus and exposure settings almost don't matter at all but it's not here (main stream) just yet. Another 5 or 8 years maybe - unless they move faster than usual.

Originally Posted by Bifurcator
OK. But how is that like manual where you can adjust both on the fly with thumb-wheels? Beside the obvious exposure control differences isn't Comp usually tucked away in a menu setting somewhere?

1.
Generally speaking when using a priority mode you have an idea in mind. If the shot requires the use of F4 to create a desired dof I typically don't need quick access to both. If I alter the aperture I will lose the depth required for the shoot. If the shutter speed is off exp comp to taste/histogram and blast away.

2.
On my little boys camera (D60) exp comp adjustments are made quickly with the thumb wheel in combination with depressing the exp comp button. Hehehe the D60 only has ONE thumb wheel so it's the same process (thumbwheel plus button) to adjust shutter speed in manual.

3.
<raises hand> to living in an environment where fast moving clouds wreak havoc on exposures 5 out of 7 days a week (Huntsville, Muskoka, Ontario, Canada) if you care to research.

4.
I am arguing purely for the sake of discussion. I am not PRO or ANTI any mode. They are all usefull and have distinct advantages depending on the environment, user skill level, and desired result. I get the most out of P,A, and M for what I do. For the record I find the meter on my Nikon to be mostly accurate unless I'm fooling it with obvious indiscretions.

1.
Right, very true for a single subject with a single effect in mind. What if you have to (or want to) shoot the (white) coffee cup, and then the entire (brown) table, and then the whole (black) kitchen? Some in-camera computers will get it kinda close while others will choke completely. The Grey card + manual will usually nail all three and if you know you're exposure tables changing the aperture to get the whole kitchen in focus doesn't present any problems (besides maybe a tripod ).

2.
OK, then if that works - awesome. You have another way of doing it. :thumbup: Nothing wrong with that!

3.
Yeah then I would probably be using a priority mode allot when shooting outside.

4.
Discussion is fun! I dig it! And you're absolutely right about the modes. They're just different camera tools. How lame would it be to have a toolbox full of tool and then limit yourself to just a screwdriver when building a house? It's just that the manual mode with a little learning is a very very multipurpose tool. Because it requires a little learning however, people tend to shy away from it. Well, by reading this thread not nearly as much as I thought :thumbup: but...

It's all good! Do what works for you, repair what didn't work in photoshop if you can, remain dynamic and open to ideas, and have fun. Having fun being the most important bit by far of course!

 

[dEARlEADER]

Umm, because there is no such feature on a camera? That would be a dream if there were tho! Seriously, try it. Meter off the grey card, set your aperture in aperture priority mode and then point the camera at something white, now black. Totally different and actually wrong readings right? OK, so if you do that and then point it at a black horse the riders small (in proportion to the horse) face isn't going to affect the meter as it should and will likely be blown out. Same with his white jockey uniform. Now zoom up on the jockey, the white uniform overpowers the metering and the detail of horse's main at the bottom of the frame gets squashed completely in dead blacks. Actually this should be a shutter priority example, but it's the same difference.

Okay.... I don't believe I am fully understand your technique... please help me...

Lets continue the following criteria:

1. Evening football game / with hot spot variable lighting
2. One team white helmets black shirts
3. The other team black helmets white shirts
4. You are using gray card in manual mode
5. You remain in a stationary position
6. You are taking various facial and full body exposures

Please describe step by step your technique of correctly exposing each image. It would also be great if you could keep it layman for me.... sometimes you speak like an android from a higher planet.

thanks bifurcator..

ps - don't mean to be a thread hog so if you want to take this to PM that would be fine.

 

[Mystwalker]

I use "Manual" with flash. I am not fast enough to use manual without flash compensating for movement and light, especially when all shots are of my daughter running around house.

When outdoor, use "Av" like 99% of other times.
Hardly ever use "Tv", but have played with it trying to get flying birds, water and stuff.

After reading "Mav's" arguement in another thread am going to look into "Program" mode.

 

[Bifurcator]

Ha ha... you realize you're going to make me end up hating manual mode now right? You'll win by default and I'll develop yet another tw-tw-twitch.

Okay.... I don't believe I am fully understand your technique... please help me...

Lets continue the following criteria:

1. Evening football game / with hot spot variable lighting
2. One team white helmets black shirts
3. The other team black helmets white shirts
4. You are using gray card in manual mode
5. You remain in a stationary position
6. You are taking various facial and full body exposures

Please describe step by step your technique of correctly exposing each image. It would also be great if you could keep it layman for me.... sometimes you speak like an android from a higher planet.

thanks bifurcator..

ps - don't mean to be a thread hog so if you want to take this to PM that would be fine.

Well it's not "my technique". It's just the way (most people I thought) use manual mode. Nothing special really.

In that scenario I would meter the grey, set the manual settings, and just shoot. If I was on a 300 or 400mm and wanted to get a face that was looking down a tad or was otherwise in harsh shadow I'd roll my finger over the aperture dial and open it up a click. After I took that shot I would close it back down and continue on.

Baseball is maybe a better example. Grey meter for the field and shoot all night at the same setting - white, black, uniforms and caps it's all going to expose correctly. Now I want some shots of the dug-out... It's in shadow and not lit as well as the field. I look both through the camera and with my eyes at the dug-out lighting (hopefully I did all this before the game) and make an eye judgement at how much I have to open the aperture (for that light - not for uniform color or anything). I open the aperture however much I thought and then check the LCD in case of dSLR or just view it through the EFV in case of bridge cameras (never having to remove my eye! :thumbup: - mine is usually set to display all shots in the EVF for either 10ses. or until I half-press the shutter button again - wonderful for checking every image as you shoot). Anyway that's it. After the dug-out shot(s) I roll it back to the grey metering.

The advantages here are:

While shooting the dugout those 4 or 6 silly incandescent bare bulbs they have hanging down won't throw my cameras' "computer" in the dirt and stomp on it.

While following that pop-fly through the air, past the flood-lights and into the short-stop's mitt - my camera stays set properly for a shot of Hans Wagner's SE-grin just before he throws the runner out at third with a triple-play to second and wins the world series. Yeah baby YEAH!

I didn't have to change anything and the camera's light meters weren't thrown for a loop by any of the field or dug-out lights while shooting - the entire session.

 

[dEARlEADER]

Ha ha... you realize you're going to make me end up hating manual mode now right? You'll win by default and I'll develop yet another tw-tw-twitch.

In that scenario I would meter the grey, set the manual settings, and just shoot. If I was on a 300 or 400mm and wanted to get a face that was looking down a tad or was otherwise in harsh shadow I'd roll my finger over the aperture dial and open it up a click. After I took that shot I would close it back down and continue on.

Baseball is maybe a better example. Grey meter for the field and shoot all night at the same setting - white, black, uniforms and caps it's all going to expose correctly. Now I want some shots of the dug-out... It's in shadow and not lit as well as the field. I look both through the camera and with my eyes at the dug-out lighting (hopefully I did all this before the game) and make an eye judgement at how much I have to open the aperture (for that light - not for uniform color or anything). I open the aperture however much I thought and then check the LCD in case of dSLR or just view it through the EFV in case of bridge cameras (never having to remove my eye! :thumbup: - mine is usually set to display all shots in the EVF for either 10ses. or until I half-press the shutter button again - wonderful for checking every image as you shoot). Anyway that's it. After the dug-out shot(s) I roll it back to the grey metering.

The advantages here are:

While shooting the dugout those 4 or 6 silly incandescent bare bulbs they have hanging down won't throw my cameras' "computer" in the dirt and stomp on it.

While following that pop-fly through the air, past the flood-lights and into the short-stop's mitt - my camera stays set properly for a shot of Hans Wagner's SE-grin just before he throws the batter out on second and wins the world series. Yeah baby YEAH!

I didn't have to change anything and the camera's light meters weren't thrown for a loop by any of the field or dug-out lights while shooting - the entire session.

That makes perfect sense!!! thanks.... but ... what about the hot spots? what about a day game with variable clouds? same technique? just grey card after every environment change? you have to meter off hot spots, soft spots, dugouts, cloud density and make a mental note like this -- (pop fly) okay... left field hot spot deduct 1/3 stop... medium cloud saturation deduct 2/3 stop... oh wait it's going deep to the fence out of the hot spot add 1/3 stop...

The method sounds good.... if the ambient lighting remains the same... but I can see missed shots if you meter under a cloud take a few snaps... grab some beer and a dog.... the cloud moves out.... the fat naked streaker runs out on the field... you drop your dog to take a snap....the exposures off.... now you have a fat naked overexposed guy...

thank you for explaining.... I better understand now... I'll give it a try next time i'm in that situation...

 

[dEARlEADER]

After reading "Mav's" arguement in another thread am going to look into "Program" mode.

Where is Mav?? M A V is M I A

it's quite likely he went insane defending jpeg format in the numerous raw vs jpeg debates....

i miss him...

 

[snowalker]

I shoot manual because I can.

That's nice!
All of us can shoot in manual mode.
The question in case is another: it's better to use all the time manual mode or is just a trend...?

 

[table1349]

That's nice!
All of us can shoot in manual mode.

If all of "us" CAN shoot in manual mode then why are there the vast proliferation of questions on shutter speed, aperture, metering, tough lighting conditions, etc. etc. etc.....? Sorry a whole lot of folks can't shoot in manual mode. If you learn to shoot in manual and get proficient at it, then using AV or TV becomes not only easier but more intuitive because you will be able to recognize when what the camera is suggesting is not correct for the shot you want to take. You can make the adjustments needed to get the shot you want.

The question in case is another: it's better to use all the time manual mode or is just a trend...?

Trend? TREND?? In all my reading I have yet to come across where Louis-Jacques-Mandé Daguerre had AV, TV, Auto, Camera M, Program AE, Portrait, Foliage, Snow, Beach, Sunset, Fireworks, Aquarium, Underwater, Indoor, Kids & Pets, Night Snapshot, Color Accent, Color Swap, Digital Macro, Stitch Assist and any other un-named modes available to him. Manual has been around since Photography began.

The only Trend I see here is more and more people getting into photography and not developing basic their photographic skills. It's easier to let the camera do it. And when the camera can't do it then they can't understand how to correct the problem.

As for what is better. It is better to develop and practice you basic photography skills. Once you have accomplished that, then use whatever mode you want, be it manual, AV, TV or pure program for that matter. You will understand what can and can't be done in what ever mode you shoot and you should know how to adjust to the situation for what ever you are using instead of just letting the camera being the boss.

 

[usayit]

"Which is better" threads that come up with lenses, cameras, modes, techniques, etc... are pretty frequently started.

The one lesson that I see most people miss all-the-time is that there is no such thing as "better". Just different tools in a tool box. Discussions are fine and educational but getting a black and white answer to the question "better?" is futile.

 

[elemental]

Who cares I learned something new. Not to mention the camera wont under or over expose because it thinks something that isnt true...

I'm sorry, that wasn't directed at you, it was more directed at the "which mode is best?" arguments. I completely understand what you're trying to learn from this, and I'm sorry it appeared personal.

 

[dEARlEADER]

"Which is better" threads that come up with lenses, cameras, modes, techniques, etc... are pretty frequently started.

The one lesson that I see most people miss all-the-time is that there is no such thing as "better". Just different tools in a tool box. Discussions are fine and educational but getting a black and white answer to the question "better?" is futile.

oh.... i thought you got that Mark II because it was "better"...

 

[usayit]

Not necessarily better if you don't like heavy cameras....
Not necessarily better if you can't afford it
Not necessarily better if you need more than 8 megapixels
Not necessarily better if you need something discreet.
Not necessarily better if you need more resolving capabilities of MF/LF
Not necessarily better if you need higher ISO performance (5D)...
Not necessarily better if you like to use older manual lenses...


See?? you get my point?? There are better choices given a specific purpose but a blanket, black and white statement that states A is better than B is futile.

Its a lesson that way too many people miss because we all suffer from G.A.S. to a certain extent.

Now ask me which is better... the 1dMII or my M8? The question is impossible to answer.

Then ask me which is better... the 1dMII or a lower end Rebel? A lot of people traveling will say Rebel (lighter). A lot of smart consumers will choose Rebel for high bang for buck value. Others... more serious in photography will obviously choose the 1dMII.

Tools in a toolbox... thats all they are...