Used equipment for beginners?

[Shutterdog]

I've bought a lot of used lenses and cameras over the last four decades; usd gear is a GREAT way to save money, and to be able to afford vastly MORE 'stuff' than if you buy all-new, all the time.

Honestly: I thyink the NEW-era Nikons with their superior sensor performance are much better than older, cheap, used cameras. The D200 and D300 Nikons, the Canon30D and 40D, all that stuff is old-tech and has limited dynamic range and real,serious problems on over-exposed images and blown exposures in the under-exposed direction as well. I would bypass ALL old-tech bodies, and buy a Nikon D3300 or D3400 or D5200 or higher model, used, and start off with what is basically, a camera that can handle all sorts of blown exposures, and can recover images to an astounding degree; that is the thing that Canon's behind on, and that Nikon and the new Sony and new Pentax d-slrs offer: ISO invariability, and the ability to software-correct a photo that was shot at utterly ridiculous degrees of 'wrong exposure" settings in the field. This can be used deliberately, by setting the shutter really fast in the field, and creating an almost-black image but one shot with a motion-stopping speed of say, 1/800 second in bad lighting, but which is then "lifted" from almsot-black and "up", to a decent exposure. This is where the new-generation Sony, Nikon,and pentax cameras excel!

I dunno...buy used, get a couple of decent lenses, start in on the game. But, do not buy into old, outdated tech just because it is low in cost: the good cameras (for the most part) started in 2012, and are newer than that. AVOID older-tech cameras as a beginner, and you automatically give yourself a HUGE advantage, on every shot you make. Look at the DxO Mark sensor scores: I've owned cameras in the 56 and 67 range, and they are rubbish in tough light, not much better than color slide film was, and new-sensor Nikon gear with 87 and higher sensor scores: the performance there at 87 or so is **astoundingly good**.

Getting into Nikon's D600,D610,D750,D500,D800 and up...those sensors are amazingly good, and so are the higher-model D3300 and D3400 and D5300 and newer, as well as the D7100 and D7200 cameras: just amazing image quality, at various price levels.

Thanks a lot, there's a lot of information in that post.

 

[Shutterdog]

I'm not trying to corrupt your preference for optical finders. But at least you should know that electronic finders have at least one benefit that I consider valuable. They can display what your image will look like at whatever exposure settings you or or meter have set. If it is a little dark, you can dial in some compensation or other setting and see the effect of the change in real time.

That is a good point. Don't you get live numeric view even when you have the optical viewfinder?

I really like to look trough the viewfinder to take the shot.

 

[dxqcanada]

What do you mean by "numeric view" ?

 

[Shutterdog]

What do you mean by "numeric view" ?

Can't you have the equivalent of a viewfinder, live view, on the screen?

 

[dxqcanada]

EVF, is a live view though the viewfinder instead of just the rear LCD ... with an OVF it will indicate what the meter reading is ... but you need to mentally interpret what that means as opposed to visually seeing it.

 

[Solarflare]

OVF vs EVF : Fun fact: they dont actually show up in your final picture. Thus yeah, how important is that choice anyway ? IMHO much less important than for example lens quality.

And both work fine, in general. Neither has a clear advantage over the other. So its really just a question of personal preference. Personally I probably lean more towards OVF, but I could work with both, really.


I like that OVFs require no current and put no stress on the main camera sensor, I like they dont blind you in low light, dont ever have any lag, dont have issues in artificial light, and dont have other such issues. Overall I find them much more natural to work with and I read from people in internet forums that they find EVFs outright intolerable.

I also like that if you have an OVF, you have an EVF anyway - the backside monitor in lifeview. All you would need is getting a protection so bright sunlight doesnt block the view. Unfortunately all the possible goodies found in EVFs that I would like to have usually dont show up in these backside monitors, except for magnification, and at least on Nikon cameras choosing the AF point in lifeview is extremely slow. At least the brand new D850 has now both touch screen and focus peaking, though not with 4K video for which it would actually be extremely important.


Because I definitely like that EVFs can have secondary functionality like focus peaking. Also magnification, zebras, false colors, life histogram etc. Very useful indeed. Unfortunately how much you actually get with an EVF and how easy it is to access etc depends upon the camera.

I also definitely like that EVFs allow shorter flange distances in comparison to SLRs. In theory this allows simpler wide angle lenses. However apparently all companies except Leica with their Leica M havent bothered to design their sensors in a way to allow sensors steep angles of incidence with the light in the first place. But without this property the shorter flange distance doesnt make much of a difference - you still have to design wide angle lenses as retrofocus designs, just as with a SLR. Also the issue is that straightforward wide angle lenses, i.e. those without retrofocus, dont allow larger apertures - in fact the geometrically possible maximum aperture goes down very quickly if the wide angle lens isnt retrofocus. Thus yeah the effect is nice to have but it doesnt matter that much.

EVFs also can be large and bright even for small sensor cameras, but I dont care about small sensor cameras, so I dont care about that aspect. Plus how much of that potential is actually realized is always another question, anyway.

They allow you to see a wrong white balance instantly, but I always shoot RAW, so meh. Also with a Nikon auto white balance its extremely rare I see any issues with the default choices of the camera anyway.

And right now even the best EVF, like in the X-T2, still have visible lag, even in bright sunlight - which I find quite irritating, especially since the advertisements claimed otherwise.

Finally, unlike some people apparently think, they certainly dont offer WYSIWYG. The backside monitor doesnt give you WYSIWYG and neither does an EVF. All an EVF really is is a backside monitor with some additional optics really, so nothing a backside monitor cant is doable by an EVF.


I find the prime aspect of any camera system I always care about is image quality; for example I tolerate manual focus lenses (Zeiss, Voigtländer, old Nikkor AI/AI-S) due to the fact they offer more image quality than any autofocus lenses. So I might lean more towards OVFs overall, but I would instantly work with EVF if said system would offer more image quality.

 

[Derrel]

Derrell, I can't help but say that your reaction makes you look fearful of mirrorless cameras. Didn't you use cameras easily prior to the advent of autofocus? I did. I have a manual lens in my mirrorless system and have no problem using it. Beagle isn't lying. He is expressing opinions that differ from yours. Personally, I won't go back to DSLR's after having my mirrorless system.

Since you don't like mirrorless cameras, don't buy them. But don't criticize people who prefer them to DSLR's.

Nice try, but no, what I dislike is people spreading lies to innocent beginners... I am not criticizing beagle's love of mirrorless cameras, but rather the massive lies he posts here, everty single time somebody who is confused or a beginner, asks a purchasing question. he spreads a cannard, a half-truth, whatever you wish to call it. BS information. Misleading information. Zealotry that is downright deceptive to beginners.

As a senior member here, with thousands of posts designed to HELP people get the best photographic information I know how to provide, I take it upon myself to challenge and expose outright deceptive statements.

I find it kind of lame that, instead of addressing my actual points, you made an ad hominem attack on "me". Classless move, dude.

I know you've convinced yourself that mirrorless cameras are the way you want to go, yet, instead of addressing the actual issues with mirrorless cameras with ADAPTED d-slr lenses, you know instead of you addressing the FACTS I brought up, you attacked ME, personally. And attacked my photographic experience. WTF, man.

Maybe you can respond like a grown-up in your folllow-up post, BMW? Maybe address the fricking hardware issues with using adapted d-slr lenses, instead of attacking me and casting aspersions on me?

And, maybe, just maybe, you will spell my name correctly if you respond. Okay, BMW?

 

[fmw]

What do you mean by "numeric view" ?

Can't you have the equivalent of a viewfinder, live view, on the screen?

Yes, you can. As long as you aren't in bright sunlight that will do the job. The EVF will work in all lighting conditions unlike the monitor.

 

[fmw]

Derrell, I can't help but say that your reaction makes you look fearful of mirrorless cameras. Didn't you use cameras easily prior to the advent of autofocus? I did. I have a manual lens in my mirrorless system and have no problem using it. Beagle isn't lying. He is expressing opinions that differ from yours. Personally, I won't go back to DSLR's after having my mirrorless system.

Since you don't like mirrorless cameras, don't buy them. But don't criticize people who prefer them to DSLR's.

Nice try, but no, what I dislike is people spreading lies to innocent beginners... I am not criticizing beagle's love of mirrorless cameras, but rather the massive lies he posts here, everty single time somebody who is confused or a beginner, asks a purchasing question. he spreads a cannard, a half-truth, whatever you wish to call it. BS information. Misleading information. Zealotry that is downright deceptive to beginners.

As a senior member here, with thousands of posts designed to HELP people get the best photographic information I know how to provide, I take it upon myself to challenge and expose outright deceptive statements.

I find it kind of lame that, instead of addressing my actual points, you made an ad hominem attack on "me". Classless move, dude.

I know you've convinced yourself that mirrorless cameras are the way you want to go, yet, instead of addressing the actual issues with mirrorless cameras with ADAPTED d-slr lenses, you know instead of you addressing the FACTS I brought up, you attacked ME, personally. And attacked my photographic experience. WTF, man.

Maybe you can respond like a grown-up in your folllow-up post, BMW? Maybe address the fricking hardware issues with using adapted d-slr lenses, instead of attacking me and casting aspersions on me?

And, maybe, just maybe, you will spell my name correctly if you respond. Okay, BMW?

I think you will get over it, "dude."

 

[Solarflare]

Beagle isn't lying. He is expressing opinions that differ from yours.

Well he's probably not intentionally lying but he's presenting his opinion in a misleading manner.

It is true one can use SLR lenses on a mirrorless with an adapter and that they will show the same image quality as on the SLR (that doesnt however contain any statement about how much image quality the mirrorless is able to record).

It is however not true that they would offer their full functionality.

Even if its one of the really advanced adapters with autofocus support the autofocus wont be as good as on a SLR, due to the differences in the AF system.

Most adapters however have reduced or no functionality. Then you're reduced to whatever the mirrorless has to offer - typically focus peaking for manual focus support and probably/hopefully some support for metering.

 

[Derrel]

Derrell, I can't help but say that your reaction makes you look fearful of mirrorless cameras. Didn't you use cameras easily prior to the advent of autofocus? I did. I have a manual lens in my mirrorless system and have no problem using it. Beagle isn't lying. He is expressing opinions that differ from yours. Personally, I won't go back to DSLR's after having my mirrorless system.

Since you don't like mirrorless cameras, don't buy them. But don't criticize people who prefer them to DSLR's.

Nice try, but no, what I dislike is people spreading lies to innocent beginners... I am not criticizing beagle's love of mirrorless cameras, but rather the massive lies he posts here, everty single time somebody who is confused or a beginner, asks a purchasing question. he spreads a cannard, a half-truth, whatever you wish to call it. BS information. Misleading information. Zealotry that is downright deceptive to beginners.

As a senior member here, with thousands of posts designed to HELP people get the best photographic information I know how to provide, I take it upon myself to challenge and expose outright deceptive statements.

I find it kind of lame that, instead of addressing my actual points, you made an ad hominem attack on "me". Classless move, dude.

I know you've convinced yourself that mirrorless cameras are the way you want to go, yet, instead of addressing the actual issues with mirrorless cameras with ADAPTED d-slr lenses, you know instead of you addressing the FACTS I brought up, you attacked ME, personally. And attacked my photographic experience. WTF, man.

Maybe you can respond like a grown-up in your folllow-up post, BMW? Maybe address the fricking hardware issues with using adapted d-slr lenses, instead of attacking me and casting aspersions on me?

And, maybe, just maybe, you will spell my name correctly if you respond. Okay, BMW?

I think you will get over it, "dude."

Indeed. I' m not too stressed by your personal attacks on me, nor by your smart-aleck comment in response. You responded about as one would expect.

 

[Shutterdog]

Yes, you can. As long as you aren't in bright sunlight that will do the job. The EVF will work in all lighting conditions unlike the monitor.

I went to best buy and tried a few mirrorless today. I never did before. The camera size and weight is indeed interesting and the EVF is better than I expected.
But I still prefer the OVF.

That said, I see why people suggest the mirrorless for travel, it sounds like a solid compact choice. I may look for one in the future.

For now, I'm still on the market for a DSLR.

 

[dxqcanada]

I like it (EVF), but not everyone does, and it does have its faults/limitations ... it's not perfect ... but it is good that you actually tried one out.

 

[Shutterdog]

I like it (EVF), but not everyone does, and it does have its faults/limitations ... it's not perfect ... but it is good that you actually tried one out.

Well I got curious. It is quite different to what I had imagined. Really closer to an optical one. But not quite the same.

I happen to like manual focus and optical viewfinder.

I am happy I gave a try to electronic ones to confirm my preference.

 

[dxqcanada]

Hmm, a DSLR with OVF and a split screen !!!