Utopia of Critique Forum

[Hertz van Rental]

When one has an Exhibit of his/her work, they usually don't send out Pvt. invitations to certain people/photographers/ or Critics .. an Exhibit is SIMPLY PUBLIC OPINION... One certainly learns from public opinion..

Of course they do. If you have a show in a proper gallery anywhere ciivilised you have an 'opening night' with free drinks and canapes. Invitations get sent out to all the big papers, magazines, art directors, critics, celebs and anyone else who might boost your reputation and career. I've been to enough of them over the years (some were my own) to know that they do happen.
And even when an exhibition is held in my local Public Library the person giving the show likes to invite their friends and family to the opening, along with a reporter from the local rag.
But what does this have to do with a critique forum?

You don't need to be on any level, on the photography ladder to have an opinion.. The orig. poster also should after time learn from opinion, who's opinion they value, through viewing the work , of those who critique his/her work...

You don't need to have any knowledge about anything to hold an opinion. Have you never talked to a taxi driver?
We all hold opinions and have beliefs, and they are often different to everyone else's. Is everyone right? Of course not. Some people must be wrong or mistaken or ill informed.
If you say the sky is blue and I say it's tartan and we are both looking at the same sky then one of us needs to have their eyes tested.
So if you are faced with a choice between two opposite opinions on a subject you know little or nothing about, which do you choose?
If your car doesn't work you usually get the opinion of a mechanic.
If your body doesn't work you go to a doctor and get his opinion.
If your heating doesn't work you get the opinion of a heating engineer.
And so on.
So if we commonly seek the opinion of experts in their field, why is it so unreasonable to prefer the opinion of an expert in Photography?
What strange magical aura does Photography generate which suddenly makes the opinion of a 17 year old who has just bought his first camera equal to that of a qualified professional with 30 years experience?

I think everyone here is going way overboard on this subject...

Hmm... We've had several incarnations of a critique forum and they have all failed. Is it really going overboard to try to figure out what went wrong and use that information to develop a model that will work this time?
Let's rebuild the Titanic rivet for rivet - the first one only sank through bad luck...

No One expects their work to be gone over with a fine tooth comb as many are suggesting...

But some people want to have that - and that is what we are hoping to offer them. If they want it they ask for it and it happens in the proposed forum.
If you don't want it then you don't ask for it.
It's called 'having a choice'.

CRITIQUE IS SIMPLY A MATTER OF PUBLIC OPINION

I'm afraid it isn't.
Public opinion and a critique are different things.
One gives reasons for holding a particular point of view and the other doesn't. Figure out which is which for yourself.

 

[elsaspet]

Good Morning New England,
I agree with what Hertz said above. Every word of it.

But keep in mind, it you want every rung of the populous to weigh in on your photo, just post it in a general gallery. Everyone's a critic there.

Personally, I'm glad that we might have the opportunity to something more "structured", and in my opinion, more professional overall.

Just my 2 pennies.

 

[RMThompson]

OK, I've been away for awhile, but let me get this straight:

1. Some inflamatory comments were made on the critique forum.

2. People started suggesting what THEY think should be the critique format.

3. So TPF took it away?

How poorly executed is that.

I am one that believes that posting and allowing public opinion on pictures is the BEST way to allow critique. There is absoluetly no WAY you're going to find a group of professionals that would be the official reviewers, without compensation.

Furthermore, taking one photograph and picking it apart may not be the best thing for ANY photographer. For some photographers, sure, but as mentioned previously in this thread, people are into photography for different reasons.

I, for example, am a photographer on several fronts. While I do some commercial/advertisement photographer, I also do art pieces, and a lot of portraits and modeling work... and some critiques may help and some may not, and that leads to a lot of WASTED time.

I had this idea for another forum, and it might work well: 1 to 1 rule. You want a critique, then you have to participate. Of course, this gets hard to monitor without some sort of software that hands out "tokens", so that is out too.

Look, if posters cannot handle getting advice from a WIDE variety of people, they should really avoid message boards altogether. I didn't see what was so wrong with the way it was implemented... post a picture, and people reply. It was one picture at a time, so you weren't inudated with a bunch of photos, but you usually got some response. If you got some harsh response, oh well man, roll with it. Don't let a few rotten apples spoil the BUNCH!

Perhaps you can reinstate with a policy that allows someone to remove nasty reviews. They can be flagged, and if they get enough flags, the moderator removes the thread and warns the reviewer. If the reviewer does it again, he/she is suspended from the critique forum for a period of time, and if they do it again: instant banning.

Simple enough.

 

[RMThompson]

Just read Hertz post and let me say this:

I 100% agree. Despite my above post, I understand the WANT for someone like a true professional critique forum... but again, It's NOT going to happen. You'd have to have at least 6-9 professionals offer their time, uncompensated, and I don't see it happening... at least not CONSISTENTLY.

Besides, 1 picture at a time just isn't feesible. Someone posts a picture, waits a week and then gets a response on that one photo... wouldnt it be better to critique linked photos? Like a series of no more than 5 photos that are in the same project? FOR EXAMPLE: Lets say I am hired to do a shoot for a new Soda company... I can post 3 - 5 images that I took, and let these "professionals" pick it over and decide what I did wrong?

Besides, what QUALIFIES someone as a professional? You say that the 17 year old with the camera cannot match the pro with 30 years experience, but photography is largely ART based, and talent has to be taken into account. I recently chatted with a man who had been 20 years in photography, owns his own business, and I personally hated every one of his photos. They were overphotoshopped, he added eyelashes to babies, and makeup onto kids.... but he is "a working pro".

I am working in photography too, usually on the weekends, but I own a small business, I do professional commercial photography for a clothing websites, shoot weddings, and do a LOT of modeling portfolio work... but Ive only been shooting for 2 years. Am I a pro? I wouldn't consider myself one.

So what are you going to do? Allow applications? Is somoene going to then critique the possible critiquers, and if so, who decides ultimately who these critiquers are. Its too much work, IMO, for an unpaid position. If you REALLY want a professional to look over your work... PM one, offer him a few dollars for his time, and say "Hey Mr Big Shot Pro, whats wrong with this pic?"

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
by Juvenal

I hear always the admonishment of my friends:
"Bolt her in, constrain her!"
But who will watch
the watchmen?
The wife plans ahead and begins with them!​

 

[Hertz van Rental]

Besides, what QUALIFIES someone as a professional? You say that the 17 year old with the camera cannot match the pro with 30 years experience, but photography is largely ART based, and talent has to be taken into account.

Talent is only any good if you know how to use it - and you find that out by having a teacher. It's unbelievably rare for someone to be good enough to teach themselves because you waste so much time re-inventing the wheel and making simple mistakes. Even Art has conventions and you still need to learn them.

A professional, as I have said before, is someone who does it as a full time job. True, they might not take the most 'artistic' pictures in the world but you don't stay in the business for very long if you don't know what sells. You also have to be reasonably proficient in technical matters. Having someone with this knowledge giving you pointers is rather helpful. Far more helpful than someone who doesn't have this knowledge in my opinion. But what do I know?

This whole thread and argument is academic anyway. If there was any intention to resurrect the Crit Forum a Mod would have been in here by now to tell us. But their absence in here is obvious and the message is clear.
It would have been nice though if the Mods had been decent enough to tell us we were wasting our time.

Pack up your pencils, kids, and let's go home for tea.

 

[RMThompson]

A professional, as I have said before, is someone who does it as a full time job. True, they might not take the most 'artistic' pictures in the world but you don't stay in the business for very long if you don't know what sells.

You missed my point entirely. Not everyone is coming here to SELL anything. Not EVERYONE wants to become a better photographer with the end goal of selling their work.

However you're correct. The mods obviously don't care what the users want, only what they find to be easier to manage, and thus they are out of TWO important topics being discussed on this forum right now.

 

[Antarctican]

^^^ I never got the impression that the crit forum was going to be for photogs looking to sell their work. In fact, Hertz indicated in several of his posts that at least initially it was going to be more for the beginners who want to improve their photography (eg posts 89 and 145, and there may have been others).

 

[smcaskil]

Pack up your pencils, kids, and let's go home for tea.

Is that Earl Gray?

 

[Arch]

1. Some inflamatory comments were made on the critique forum.

2. People started suggesting what THEY think should be the critique format.

3. So TPF took it away?

How poorly executed is that.

Wrong.
We have ALWAYS had problems with the crit forum. We have tried several times to get a formula that works best over the number of years TPF has been active for. We have NOT simply dismissed it becuase of this ONE incident. You are completely mis-informed.

The mods obviously don't care what the users want, only what they find to be easier to manage, and thus they are out of TWO important topics being discussed on this forum right now.

There has been several topics about the crit section... Terri quite clearly discribed why the crit section is closing and what our members can do in the meantime.

There have been some suggestions made here on the improvement of the Critique Forum. Some of them we have heard before and some are new. As I've stated elsewhere, all those who wish to sincerely undertake the restructure of a completely new Critique Forum are free to do so among themselves. We all come to this forum with a wide range of experience and expectations. The seemingly simple matter of "critique" means something quite different to a beginner than it does to a seasoned pro, so it is suddenly not a "simple" thing to offer in this venue. We are always willing to review any new ideas for Critique so, should you be interested in tackling this, we just ask that you have a completely thorough program outlined before asking for a review.

We make it relaxed, people complain, we make it strict people complain. This is why we let YOU discuss what you want. When you have all agreed on a final plan of action which is ready for the mods to impliment we will then review it.

 

[Helen B]

Is that Earl Gray?

Absolutely not! It would be Earl Grey.

 

[smcaskil]

I wondered about the spelling, but then pushed submit anyway. OOPS

 

[(Ghastly) Krueger]

This whole thread and argument is academic anyway. If there was any intention to resurrect the Crit Forum a Mod would have been in here by now to tell us.

So you think it was all like mental.... decaf coffee?

 

[monkeykoder]

Okay I don't know if this has been suggested before sorry for not reading the entire thread but

Idea:
Create critique forum where everybody has the right to create new threads but not reply to them.

Find a group of people that are both willing and able to give critiques (possibly winning a non-anonymous POTM type contest) Give ONLY those people rights to reply to the threads. Technical issues could be discussed over PM with the designated critique people posting relevant questions.

 

[Hertz van Rental]

So you think it was all like mental.... decaf coffee?

Or alcohol-free lager.
Basically, yes.


(If you want to become a pro or just become a better amateur you would still want your pictures commented on by people who actually know what they are talking about. How can someone make comments to help you improve if their pictures are no better? It's like saying 'I'm not a racing driver so I won't take my car to a garage. I'll stop someone in the street and ask them to have a look.')

 

[Chiller]

Or alcohol-free lager.
Basically, yes.


(If you want to become a pro or just become a better amateur you would still want your pictures commented on by people who actually know what they are talking about. How can someone make comments to help you improve if their pictures are no better? It's like saying 'I'm not a racing driver so I won't take my car to a garage. I'll stop someone in the street and ask them to have a look.')

...thats a good point. Im still chuckling at some of the members offering such great critique:er:, and dont post any pictures themselves. How do we even know they have any clue what they are talking about.