What is art?

[c.cloudwalker]

Sorry people, I had a lot more to say about this question which I DO find fascinating but I had an emergency to attend to (am part of a group that helps abused kids, if you're interested), only got back a short while ago and am dead tired so I'll do it tomorrow.

And my original post will make more sense when you read what else I had to say. Well, I think


Before I log out, though, I want to say that I find it a bit confusing to see someone wonder about the point of this thread (the original question) but spend a lot of time and many posts on it.

 

[inTempus]

If you're a talentless hack with a camera, Tharmsen, than I my photographic skills must be the equivalent of the sludge that collects in the gutter underneath a McDonald's. Give yourself some credit man.

(Oh wait, I forgot you have a 1DMkIII. Right, nevermind. You are a talentless hack. Obviously the camera is doing all the work; it's just that awesome. :lmao: </sarcasm> )

If there's an image in my port that you really like, it wasn't me... it was that 1D. It's the artist.

 

[Baaaark]

Sorry people, I had a lot more to say about this question which I DO find fascinating but I had an emergency to attend to (am part of a group that helps abused kids, if you're interested), only got back a short while ago and am dead tired so I'll do it tomorrow.

And my original post will make more sense when you read what else I had to say. Well, I think


Before I log out, though, I want to say that I find it a bit confusing to see someone wonder about the point of this thread (the original question) but spend a lot of time and many posts on it.

I get the point personally, but think that some things are undefinable, and best left undefined and unsolved, if you will.

Some ambiguity and mystery is good.

 

[c.cloudwalker]

Sorry people, I had a lot more to say about this question which I DO find fascinating but I had an emergency to attend to (am part of a group that helps abused kids, if you're interested), only got back a short while ago and am dead tired so I'll do it tomorrow.

And my original post will make more sense when you read what else I had to say. Well, I think


Before I log out, though, I want to say that I find it a bit confusing to see someone wonder about the point of this thread (the original question) but spend a lot of time and many posts on it.

I get the point personally, but think that some things are undefinable, and best left undefined and unsolved, if you will.

Some ambiguity and mystery is good.

Actually, I quite agree but our brains do not and the human animal just tries and tries to figure things out. Does God exist? What is the meaning of life? Are both very old questions that are similar to trying to define art and you will see that, in the end, I will not really define anything much.

I mean, look at my definition of the artist. It even made someone laugh because… it was too simple.

The other thing I wondered about with your first post is: what do you talk about with your friends? Some people are good at just talking about the weather. I’m not and I talk about things like this thread. Not that it is anymore important than the weather, it is not, but it makes for livelier discussions and evenings, imo. And to be honest, I don’t think this type of discussion kills either ambiguity or mystery. And if it happened to for one subject, I’m quite sure we would find more ambiguity and mystery in another.


Anyway, let’s get back to the subject. I’ll start by finishing with the artist. I stand by my definition. Even though Moglex has a point as to what my definition of art could be, it would be like going in circle and I don’t particularly like going in circles.

I found the sub questions in manaheim’s original post even more interesting. What makes artists? What makes them tick? How do you become one?

Absolutely no idea. Which is why I mentioned philosophy and psychiatry. Members of those two branches of human study are the “professionals” when it comes to figure things out but they are nowhere near figuring out what makes a person be that person. If you don’t believe me, read transcripts of trials where psychiatrists were involved. When they are not obviously biased to their side, they usually make very good points for their side even though they are saying totally opposite things. I’ve even seen them say the exact same thing but make it sound like totally opposite viewpoints.

As regards artists, we throw into the mix something that is so subjective that I just don’t see how we could ever answer those three questions.

I have boys who are identical twins. Although they are both musicians, one of them makes his living now as a mechanic and the other in politics. Why? They were raised the same and are “clones” of each other. I also have cousins who are identical twins. One is an artist (photographer) and the other one was a banker. Those two were so in tune with each other that when one was in pain, the other felt it. Yet, there were so different.


What is ART? I like Wiki’s definition offered by icassell as much as the one from the Merriam-Webster: “the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects” and maybe even more because I am not so sure about the “conscious” part of Merriam’s. Most honest artists will readily admit that they don’t always know why they did something except: it looked good.

One thing that bothers me about both of those definitions is the fact that neither mentions the lack of commercial interest and, to me, that is a big part of art. Think of someone like Michelangelo, world famous artist even though the only works we know are commissioned work. Anyone who’s done commercial photography knows that the purpose (or usage) of the image has more control over the photo then the photographer. Although I admire Michelangelo’s technique, I can not talk of him as an artist. I just don’t know what this man would have painted had he painted for his sole pleasure.

And that was the case with most artists back then who had to take commissioned work to survive. In today’s world (our western countries anyway,) it is much easier to be able to live with little because today’s little is quite a bit more than yesteryear’s. And that has opened the doors for art in the sense that we can truly work on our personal visions.

We have way more true art today then they did in the time of Michelangelo and, as a result, we have a much larger palette of styles.

That’s all folks!!! About art anyway.


A few random thoughts about things that have been said in this thread:

I don’t quite agree with icassell’s example with Pollock. His elements were, to some degree, controlled accidents but I don’t think that the arrangement of the elements was.

Arkanjel Imaging mentions art vs. craft. I tend to see craft as a derogatory way of looking at what we consider second class art. The person who creates a million dollar necklace is an artist but the one who sells his stuff for $25 is a craftsperson. Why?

More than one person mentions the fact that art is subjective. How true. Just like in any other aspect of life, someone’s trash may be someone else’s gold. Look at Michael Jackson. The word genius is all over the place since he died but, sorry, I may not change the station when one of his songs comes on the radio but I don’t see the genius. And let’s not forget how big a part Quincy Jones played in the art of MJ.

Nature is a powerful creator. How else do you explain that a photo of a single seashell on a medium gray background with nothing else in the frame, can hang in a museum? The photographer’s technique is good. OK. But the photo is the shell and that shell is a product of nature’s creativity. Why too are so many artists studying Phi or the divine proportion? It comes to us from nature.

Sorry to be so long. Time to take a breath.

 

[Baaaark]

Actually, I quite agree but our brains do not and the human animal just tries and tries to figure things out. Does God exist? What is the meaning of life? Are both very old questions that are similar to trying to define art and you will see that, in the end, I will not really define anything much.

I mean, look at my definition of the artist. It even made someone laugh because… it was too simple.

The other thing I wondered about with your first post is: what do you talk about with your friends? Some people are good at just talking about the weather. I’m not and I talk about things like this thread. Not that it is anymore important than the weather, it is not, but it makes for livelier discussions and evenings, imo. And to be honest, I don’t think this type of discussion kills either ambiguity or mystery. And if it happened to for one subject, I’m quite sure we would find more ambiguity and mystery in another.

This is totally OT, and I apologize.

But I think for me, the more I try to figure out the unsolvable, the more angry and frustrated I get. This may be TMI, but I'm bipolar, I am trying to find some inner peace, (maybe find my inner Dao, lol) and I think for me, the only way to achieve inner peace is to make an attempt to achieve outer peace as well. This means accepting things like the fact I will never know with total certainty there is a God, even though its hard to do.

Buddha said it well. It goes something like (I'll quote, even though its not exact), "To ask whether there is a God is like being shot with an arrow, and first asking who shot you." Basically life is difficult enough without the pressure of solving philosophical questions.

Sorry to hijack. This is what happens when you ask open-ended questions, though. They are like watercolors--you can never keep one color from bleeding into the others. I'm just glad people were able to talk about it without getting frustrated and angry.

 

[c.cloudwalker]

This is totally OT, and I apologize.

But I think for me, the more I try to figure out the unsolvable, the more angry and frustrated I get. This may be TMI, but I'm bipolar, I am trying to find some inner peace, (maybe find my inner Dao, lol) and I think for me, the only way to achieve inner peace is to make an attempt to achieve outer peace as well. This means accepting things like the fact I will never know with total certainty there is a God, even though its hard to do.

Buddha said it well. It goes something like (I'll quote, even though its not exact), "To ask whether there is a God is like being shot with an arrow, and first asking who shot you." Basically life is difficult enough without the pressure of solving philosophical questions.

Sorry to hijack. This is what happens when you ask open-ended questions, though. They are like watercolors--you can never keep one color from bleeding into the others. I'm just glad people were able to talk about it without getting frustrated and angry.

Two questions: What does OT mean? And, what are you apologizing for? I seriously have no idea unless it is for expressing your opinion

And I don't think anyone would think you hijacked the thread. The question asked should bring this kind of back and forth. Although I don't take this kind of discussion too seriously, I most often learn something from them plus they are fun. As I said before, I find them a nice way to spend an evening with friends.

 

[DScience]

Very interesting question and I can't wait to see more answers.

What is art? what is an artist?

I'll start with the easy one: what is an artist?

An artist is a person creating works of art. Period. Finito. The end.

In our overly comfortable western world today we may feel a need to redefine everything because we are so bored with our lives but that does not mean it is necessary. The definition of an artist is very simple: a person creating works of art. You don't like it, that's just too bad. Go get a degree in philosophy or psychiatry and you can spend the next 75 five years debating it.

Back later with the definition of art.

Ok then what is a 'work of art'....You didn't answer any question. That's like saying, "what's an athlete".."anyone who does athletics".

 

[jamagica]

As many have said, art is always frist defined by the creator, and once a majority of its viewers agree that it's art, it's CONSIDERED art. However, if community and fellowship was to not be a part of the picture, any one thing could be a work of art. For example..I believe that God created everything that's natural. The "oooos" and "aaaahhs" I release when I see various parts of nature are a part of the realization that something so natural is artistic. However..because not a majority of people believe that same thing, a tree in the ground is not considered art.
Picasso's work is considered art because of its large body of publicity, and the fact that everyone in that body considers it art.

In conclusion...art is defined by the creator or the viewer; something that appeals to emotions, expresses emotion, appeals to the senses, or expresses the senses.
That's why all those beautiful underground coves are considered artistic..they're appealing to the eyes. That's why the portrait of a crying baby is considered artistic, it's appealing to the emotion.

 

[Andrew Boyd]

The definition I like is:
A true artist MUST make art, is COMPELLED to make it, whether photographically or in some other medium. The true artist has no choice but to make art.
How many of us feel that strongly?
Of course, that doesn't mean what he/she makes will necessarily be deemed to be any good....many, many famous artists had no "success" during their lifetimes.
Andrew Boyd
TheDiscerningPhotograher.com

 

[c.cloudwalker]

The definition I like is:
A true artist MUST make art, is COMPELLED to make it, whether photographically or in some other medium. The true artist has no choice but to make art.
How many of us feel that strongly?
Of course, that doesn't mean what he/she makes will necessarily be deemed to be any good....many, many famous artists had no "success" during their lifetimes.
Andrew Boyd
TheDiscerningPhotograher.com

:thumbup:

Absolutely. Thus the idea that I think any definition of art should include the fact of it having no relation to money whatsoever.

And it doesn't mean we are not happy to sell. Just that it is not the primary or even secondary motivation. Selling is an accident. A beautiful one but an accident nevertheless.

 

[manaheim]

Absolutely. Thus the idea that I think any definition of art should include the fact of it having no relation to money whatsoever.

And it doesn't mean we are not happy to sell. Just that it is not the primary or even secondary motivation. Selling is an accident. A beautiful one but an accident nevertheless.

You kinda spit on Michaelangelo earlier in the thread and I tried to ignore it, but since you've pushed the point I'm going to call you on it.

This position is really pretty bogus. You're basically giving the broadest and most open definition of what art is, and that is basically that art is only defined by those who see it as art... what's more is you're tossing your weight around on this thread like you are the god of what defines art... oh but then you toss in this big restriction that you're not allowed to make money on it?

I'm sorry, but ... bull****. Seriously.

You may personally feel that Michaelangelo didn't create art because his works were comissioned, but based upon your first and initial definition I absolutely consider his works art.

If you want to think you have to die starving to be an artist, you are of course, welcome to think that, but I think you should let us all decide for ourselves whether or not we think art is art if you get paid.

Good...

freaking...

god...

:headdesk:

 

[c.cloudwalker]

If you want to think you have to die starving to be an artist, you are of course, welcome to think that, but I think you should let us all decide for ourselves whether or not we think art is art if you get paid.

I'm not quite sure this fits with the quote of mine you chose.

And I don't remember saying that "I am the way!." I expressed my opinion and no one has to accept it or even like it. It is just my opinion. Nothing more.

If expressing one's opinion is acting like a god this forum is in serious trouble since most of what is being said is personal opinions. Maybe I should put a disclaimer at the end of my posts.

How's that one?

Disclaimer: This is only my opinion and, NO, I am not God!

 

[manaheim]

^^^^ sorry, man... I was out of line. I was having a very bad day and was not feeling well. No excuse, but my apologies.

I still disagree with you, but there was no reason for my behavior.