I'm with Mike and PNA

[elsaspet]

Man, what started out to be a great idea turned into some kind of opinion prison.
I had a thread up in the finished catagory. Some people liked it, but most did not, and offered suggestions. I learned a lot from that.
I know you guys prolly do this in some kind of back room committee, but I would REALLY appreciate it if you wouldn't destroy the thread. There was an argument, but it was handled in a very nice manner, and we were all friends again.
Other posts were removed it seems because they weren't well worded enough. Screw that. It's my thread, let me figure it out.
As it is though now, I do not wish to participate. Please view this as my official request to have the entire thread deleted.

 

[deanimator]

Elsaspet...I too am sorry to see what happened.

I´m new here and have to say I was very surprised, actually disappointed, at the manner in which the thread was handled by the management.
I noticed a similar argument elsewhere in this forum recently too...

I´ve never seen anything like that in other forums in which I participate.

 

[elsaspet]

Wecome. Please note that this forum is not normally so undermanaged. I thought the idea was really cool at first. It seemed like a great comprimise over the old forum.
But really! Even the argument that happened had some value. As it is, it makes no sense. Why was I angry at PhotoPheonix? Why did I read him the riot act? He was gracious in his response. He got it. It had nothing to do with the photo, but everything to do with proper critique manners.

I mean, as it was left, there was absolutely no reason that I singled PP out. Even rational versions of the objectable posts were removed.

If I put a thread up, I wanna hear what people say....good or bad. I want to know why. It's up to ME to decide whether the advice is warrented in facts. Not up to some panel.
I get what you are doing, but I think the critique forum is going to be a really lonely place.

 

[newrmdmike]

but . . . like its been said before, its new, there are still sharp edges that need filed down. growing pains or something right?

i disagree with editing posts and threads without warning first . . . but i'm not a mod.

through my bad experience in the new general critique section i can say i understand it, and see what is trying to be done. its about critiquing the image, not changing it, not manipulating it and claiming "oh i'll fix that later, i wasn't done" its also not for defending yourself and explaining yourself. its for seeing what people think about whatever it is your submitting, and i do agree that in that environment more meaningful critiques may be had over the usual shallow ps edit . . . not that ps edits and tips cant be helpful.

the hard part i see in this instance is that if someone wants to offer advice in a form of editing the work and the creator wants it, then a second thread has to be made. this is a tough issue, and it won't be a fun one to resolve. i also believe it is the critique mods goal to provide us with a better critique environment than what was previously haad.

 

[elsaspet]

I don't understand it. I wanted to though.
It's a good idea, but the train went off the tracks. I don't need someone to come in and "approve" what I or someone else has to say. Critique, in a true sense is a free for all. But my guess is that few of this panel have ever been involved in an honest to God judging in either PPA, WPJA, or WPPI.
I have been. And I am an adult. If I don't agree with a critique, I am more than willing to say why.
And this is from someone who was pretty much ripped on the whole critique thing. It's NOT ego. It's all about knowing when to step up, and why.
IMO, the mods aren't getting this.

 

[The_Traveler]

I agree with above.

There is a sort of disconnect here between the intent of the Forum and the way it is working. The guidelines say that all responses should be substantive in some way; that 'attaboys' or 'I like it' or 'take out the tree' are not appropriate for a critique forum because they are incomplete.

That doesn't mean that edits aren't a substantive response and I think that a discussion between the poster and the respondents that should determine the content.

I made a couple of posts that asked for no edits but only for comments on the picture as posted and got what I considered good responses.

IMO, the purpose of the mods is to guide the forum to adjust to the new , better guidelines not to act as everyone's guardian and arbiter. I think that the critique Forum is currently being way over-moderated both in style and tone.

 

[Big Mike]

I'm not up to speed on the new Critique forums, nor have I read the thread in question here. I just want to point out that there will be some growing pains with the new set up and that there has been a lot of work put into it.

Please give it some time and make any suggestions you might have in this, the feedback, forum.

 

[elsaspet]

I'm not up to speed on the new Critique forums, not have I read the thread in question here. I just want to point out that there will be some growing pains with the new set up and that there has been a lot of work put into it.

Please give it some time and make any suggestions you might have in this, the feedback, forum.

My time is extremly limited. That is why I vanish for months at a time. I don't have the hours in a day to sit around hoping the panel figures this out. When I came out about this, I was met by extreme sarcasm.
My answer was to ban me. I'm not going to be a puppet. But at the same time, I'm one of the very FEW on here that makes a good living from this. I'm one of the few who has been in various mags, and has 8 weddings in a national book coming out. I'm one of the few bankable photogs, but watch them kick me off anyways, due to ego.
Kick me off, and feel bigger. I could give a bean. Draw your silly drawings, and follow your silly panel advice.

As I said in private, the next move is up to the mod panel. Go to your back room and decide.

 

[newrmdmike]

it is being handled poorly . . . and a couple days ago i was where you were, and was quite ready to quit this forum for good.

really the being kicked thing is why i started the thread doing the same thing your doing now.

maybe we'll just stay out of the critique section until its fixed

 

[Digital Matt]

My time is extremly limited. That is why I vanish for months at a time. I don't have the hours in a day to sit around hoping the panel figures this out. When I came out about this, I was met by extreme sarcasm.
My answer was to ban me. I'm not going to be a puppet. But at the same time, I'm one of the very FEW on here that makes a good living from this. I'm one of the few who has been in various mags, and has 8 weddings in a national book coming out. I'm one of the few bankable photogs, but watch them kick me off anyways, due to ego.
Kick me off, and feel bigger. I could give a bean. Draw your silly drawings, and follow your silly panel advice.

As I said in private, the next move is up to the mod panel. Go to your back room and decide.

With all due respect, this is not something for the panel to figure out. This is something for the entire forum to work together at. It takes a concerted effort from both mods and forum members alike. The aim is more meaningful critiques, and if that means that each and everyone of us have to think a little harder before we post, then we should do so. If you don't have the time for this, you are not being required to participate. Please don't impede progress though either.

The previous critique forum spun out of control because of lack of moderation and simple moving of posts. These new forums have strict guidelines, which are intended to keep the critiques at a high level to benefit all who participate. It's going to take a bit of time before the overall membership gets accustomed to following the strict rules, but in the same way a classroom teacher keeps the students on track during lessons, the moderation has to keep critiques on track.

 

[newrmdmike]

speaking of this back-room committee, who all is in it?

motcon, digital matt and ? ? ?

one thing i'm not getting that i did expect to get is for some of the other mods and admins to really speak their minds publically without worrying about stepping on toes. i can understand the "give it time" mentality. . .

but i also see that lots of the critique threads are having to be moderated quite closely, and that there are lots of 'rules' being broken. it is my opinion that over regulation will only keep people from choosing to use that section of the forum, or to leave and use another one. it is also my opinion that if that much moderation is taking place then the written rules are not doing a good job of matching what the committee meant for them too, otherwise we wouldn't be having problems. the users having problems weren't problem causers in the past, and we aren't trying to cause problems now . . . so there is obviously confusion in the rules and regulations/critique policies.

I would like for the critique section moderation to be more leniant and explain to people what the future will hold in those situationsl until this problem is sorted out. more users will have problems with it, and people will leave this forum over it. lets make this an issue open to the public, or to users with over 500 posts or something so that we can reach some conclusion as to what the users even want from the critique section rather than what a couple of users want from the critique section.

 

[danalec99]

Please give it some time and make any suggestions you might have in this, the feedback, forum.

No offense meant to any posters but this thread (NSFW) is a prime example of the kind of discourse that should not be in a serious Critique section. I'm not referring to the image, but the majority of posts belonged to the Off Topic-ville. Hence to cut the clutter an amount of moderation in necessary. But that does not mean people have to ask permission to breath. The 'not substantive' badge and the 'warning to edit the post before so and so date' is childish. It's offensive. Sometimes not all the responses might be directed to the original post/image. For example, I wanted to respond to skieur's post in this thread. I disagree with his comment. But I stopped, for the fear of the badge and the warning. I wasn't planning to talk about the weather in Brazil. This is primarily a community of creative people. And creative people hardly enjoys having big brother over their shoulders. I'm not saying to let it loose. I've been a mod myself not too long ago and have moved hundreds of threads from the Critique Gallery for not complying with the guidelines and have been in the heat several times for doing so. This is a public forum and it is hard to make all the members happy at all times - I know that. But let's have more breathing space.

Just one suggestion.

 

[elsaspet]

With all due respect to you as well *you know I adore you*, this has nothing to do with the community, and everything to do with the mods.
Would it spook you guys to know I know exactly what was said?
I imagine your first suggestion would be to "tighten security" but in reality you guys need to really give some thought to what you are doing.
I mean, give me a break about the community. Even when I'm not online I get a million guestions and I try to answer them all, so give me a break about that. If you would have asked the community, they would have agreed. The "community" get's me.

 

[Digital Matt]

Over moderation might well drive people away, but under moderation will likely lead to the out of control critique forum that everyone was dying to replace. We have to take the next few weeks and "play it by ear", starting with this current stratagem which we developed over much discussion. Not everyone is going to like adhering to the rules, but hopefully in time we will all learn how to make this thing work. We ask that you (forum members) be patient, and try to give the new rules a chance. Nothing is in stone. We want this forum to be what it should be; a chance for us all to learn from one another.

 

[elsaspet]

You know I love ya Dan. I've always been there for you, as you usually are for me...........
However,

I don't want some damn panel to decide what I need to know. I don't want some puppet telling me what is acceptable in critique and what is not. I have a brain. If if I think something needs to be sorted out, I can do it on my own, without any help from big brother.