25 Person Group Shot!

[afliegs]

I have a photoshoot this weekend for a graduation. Most of the pictures will be concentrated on the grad, but some will be family pictures. And finally, they want to have a large family shot of all estimated 25 people who will be there.

Does anybody have any advice on posing, camera settings, etc. Thanks!!

The equipment that I have and could use... Canon 6D, 50mm 1.8, 85mm 1.8, 135mm 2.0, tamron 24-70. I also will have access to 2 canon 600rt's and 1 canon 430 ex II.

 

[tirediron]

Is this a paid commission, or a favour for a friend?

 

[runnah]

Outside or inside?

 

[afliegs]

Is this a paid commission, or a favour for a friend?

It's paid. It is also the friend of one of my parents. I have made it clear to the client that, although I've done my share of photoshoots, I've never done a group shot that big.

 

[afliegs]

Outside or inside?

Hopefully outside. Although there is possible rain in the forecast, so I may have to come up with an option for inside as well.

 

[runnah]

I'd use flash in both occasions. Set them on stands on either side of the group and power them accordingly.

 

[TCampbell]

If you're in full sun AND you plan to use flash, then you have to use a shutter speed which is at or below the max flash-sync speed of the 6D -- that's 1/180th sec. If you switch on high-speed sync mode, then you can shoot faster, but be warned... it means the flash has to emit multiple pulses with an equal amount of light for each pulse. At 1/200th it would have to fire at least 2 pulses and that means that each pulse can only fire at 1/2 power. If it had to fire 4 pulses then each pulses couldn't exceed more than 1/4 power (and that's probably beyond what you can get away with for a group this large given the distances involved.)

If it's a "Sunny 16" situation of ISO 100, f/16, 1/100th, but then f/11 becomes 1/200th (technically just barely above the flash sync speed but only by 1/5th of a stop and that's easily adjusted).

If it's light or medium overcast you can come down one or two stops (1 for light, 2 for medium) which would put you in the f/5.6 or f/8 category.

With a 50mm lens on a 6D you get a dimensional field of view 18' wide at a distance of 25' back from the subject. That means if you staggered three rows... e.g. a row of 8, a row of 9, and another row of 8, then you'd get 25 people in the shot. If you place the subjects so their shoulders are roughly 45º facing center (rather than square to the camera) you'd get everyone in. Even if you're all the way down to f/5.6, a focused distance of 25' yields a DoF which is about 35' front front to bog (everything from about 16' to 51'). If you use the Tamron 24-70 and a shorter focal length then of course the DoF gets even broader.

The front-to-back distance is likely to be about 8'. If the speedlights are about 20' away then you don't lose a full-stop of light until the distance reaches 28'. You do not want to let the flashes get too close otherwise the distances at which you change by a full stop of light get narrow.

The 600RT's have a guide number of 60 meters at f/1. Divide that by f/5.6 and it gives you 10.7 meters or 35' at full power, but when using fill I tend to back off the power (I just want the flash to ease the shadows... not erase them. Otherwise you get flat 2-dimensional images rather a more dimensional 3D look that shadows bring.)

Note that the 430 cannot be a commander... it can only be a slave, and it can only be an IR slave. The 600's can be commander or slave and can be either IR or radio triggered.

I see contradictory info about whether the 6D has a built-in radio trigger for the new Canon RT speedlites. If it's not built in then you may want to rent an ST-E3-RT trigger.

 

[ronlane]

Take 12.5 of the people and shoot them (multiple exposures - say 3) and the take the other 12.5 and do the same. stitch them together and merge the 6 exposures for a pano HDR. They've got to love it.

(Yes, I am being funny.)

Is there a place with stairs that you can "stack" them? If so, shouldn't you be able to put all 25 of them close enough together to use the 85 or 24-70. Flash, reflector(s) and a bigger apeture would help a lot.

One other thing. Sparky480 could probably help more with this but focus stacking may be of help with a group this size.

 

[vintagesnaps]

I don't think it's a good idea to take on a job that you don't know if you have the necessary equipment for or have any experience doing. I don't think it seems like a photographer is ready to accept payment and clients until they have the expertise to do the job and have the necessary business aspects prepared (releases, contracts, billing, etc.).

 

[frog116]

I don't think it's a good idea to take on a job that you don't know if you have the necessary equipment for or have any experience doing. I don't think it seems like a photographer is ready to accept payment and clients until they have the expertise to do the job and have the necessary business aspects prepared (releases, contracts, billing, etc.).

I agree. I've been in business for about 10 years and I still do this. There is no shame in saying "Hey, you know, I really don't have any experience in this particular area and I would feel much better if you'd allow me to just do you the favor of taking the shots. You're helping me out by giving me an opportunity to learn and improve." It sounds better than "I don't know exactly what to expect and your stuff might end up not so hot". I just recently did this with a fitness themed shoot. The gal is a female bodybuilder and wants some stuff to shop around to companies and vendors etc. I am so clueless about that world that I offered to do a freebie.

Are the family shots being held at the graduation place? (High school gym, football field etc.) I have shot graduations before and you may be hard pressed to find an area where there isn't people/cars etc. all in the background. Maybe you could take them to a park or somewhere else? Graduations are crazy crowded.

If you will be photographing indoors (such as a gym or auditorium) custom white balance is essential. If they are wanting shots during the ceremony (such as grad getting diploma, walking in, etc.) you will absolutely want to shoot with a telephoto. I use my 70-200 and even then I could stand to be closer! Also, shooting from a distance, flash isn't going to help you much. Don't be too afraid of bumping up your ISO and if you have IS on a lens by all means use it!

 

[afliegs]

If you're in full sun AND you plan to use flash, then you have to use a shutter speed which is at or below the max flash-sync speed of the 6D -- that's 1/180th sec. If you switch on high-speed sync mode, then you can shoot faster, but be warned... it means the flash has to emit multiple pulses with an equal amount of light for each pulse. At 1/200th it would have to fire at least 2 pulses and that means that each pulse can only fire at 1/2 power. If it had to fire 4 pulses then each pulses couldn't exceed more than 1/4 power (and that's probably beyond what you can get away with for a group this large given the distances involved.)

If it's a "Sunny 16" situation of ISO 100, f/16, 1/100th, but then f/11 becomes 1/200th (technically just barely above the flash sync speed but only by 1/5th of a stop and that's easily adjusted).

If it's light or medium overcast you can come down one or two stops (1 for light, 2 for medium) which would put you in the f/5.6 or f/8 category.

With a 50mm lens on a 6D you get a dimensional field of view 18' wide at a distance of 25' back from the subject. That means if you staggered three rows... e.g. a row of 8, a row of 9, and another row of 8, then you'd get 25 people in the shot. If you place the subjects so their shoulders are roughly 45º facing center (rather than square to the camera) you'd get everyone in. Even if you're all the way down to f/5.6, a focused distance of 25' yields a DoF which is about 35' front front to bog (everything from about 16' to 51'). If you use the Tamron 24-70 and a shorter focal length then of course the DoF gets even broader.

The front-to-back distance is likely to be about 8'. If the speedlights are about 20' away then you don't lose a full-stop of light until the distance reaches 28'. You do not want to let the flashes get too close otherwise the distances at which you change by a full stop of light get narrow.

The 600RT's have a guide number of 60 meters at f/1. Divide that by f/5.6 and it gives you 10.7 meters or 35' at full power, but when using fill I tend to back off the power (I just want the flash to ease the shadows... not erase them. Otherwise you get flat 2-dimensional images rather a more dimensional 3D look that shadows bring.)

Note that the 430 cannot be a commander... it can only be a slave, and it can only be an IR slave. The 600's can be commander or slave and can be either IR or radio triggered.

I see contradictory info about whether the 6D has a built-in radio trigger for the new Canon RT speedlites. If it's not built in then you may want to rent an ST-E3-RT trigger.

Thanks for this great info!!

The Canon 6D does not have a built-in radio trigger. I may either use one of the 600 as an IR trigger for what I have or take your advice and rent an ST-E3-RT or even another 600. Do you think the lighting would be too uneven by using one of the 600 on my camera (or on a bracket) and the other on a stand? If that would be too uneven, is the best flash position just to have one on each side of me slightly forward?

From what I'm gathering about the flash sync, I'm going to need to use somewhere between f/11 and f/16 if it's sunny? And maybe be able to stop down a bit if it's overcast?

Thanks again!

 

[afliegs]

I don't think it's a good idea to take on a job that you don't know if you have the necessary equipment for or have any experience doing. I don't think it seems like a photographer is ready to accept payment and clients until they have the expertise to do the job and have the necessary business aspects prepared (releases, contracts, billing, etc.).

I agree. I've been in business for about 10 years and I still do this. There is no shame in saying "Hey, you know, I really don't have any experience in this particular area and I would feel much better if you'd allow me to just do you the favor of taking the shots. You're helping me out by giving me an opportunity to learn and improve." It sounds better than "I don't know exactly what to expect and your stuff might end up not so hot". I just recently did this with a fitness themed shoot. The gal is a female bodybuilder and wants some stuff to shop around to companies and vendors etc. I am so clueless about that world that I offered to do a freebie.

Are the family shots being held at the graduation place? (High school gym, football field etc.) I have shot graduations before and you may be hard pressed to find an area where there isn't people/cars etc. all in the background. Maybe you could take them to a park or somewhere else? Graduations are crazy crowded.

If you will be photographing indoors (such as a gym or auditorium) custom white balance is essential. If they are wanting shots during the ceremony (such as grad getting diploma, walking in, etc.) you will absolutely want to shoot with a telephoto. I use my 70-200 and even then I could stand to be closer! Also, shooting from a distance, flash isn't going to help you much. Don't be too afraid of bumping up your ISO and if you have IS on a lens by all means use it!

Like I said above, I have made it clear that I've never done a large group shot. This shoot is mainly going to be the grad and some family shots (both of which I have experience with). The group shot is more like an afterthought, so actually this is the perfect opportunity for me to gain some practice.

This is actually going to be in a very large back yard for an hour and a half before they leave for the actual graduation, so I won't have to deal with the other complications you mentioned (thank goodness!)

 

[TCampbell]

The Canon 6D does not have a built-in radio trigger. I may either use one of the 600 as an IR trigger for what I have or take your advice and rent an ST-E3-RT or even another 600. Do you think the lighting would be too uneven by using one of the 600 on my camera (or on a bracket) and the other on a stand? If that would be too uneven, is the best flash position just to have one on each side of me slightly forward?

Yes, it would be uneven. It's not that this is always a problem, but I think it will be a problem in your situation. Here's why:

If you were just taking a photo of an individual person or even just two or three people, then a light off to the side would work well. But this is a large group and that extends the distance that needs to be covered... not just front to back, but also left to right.

Suppose the light is on your right side. The people on that side will be nearer to the flash. The people on the opposite side will be farther. Keep in mind that every time the distance increases by a ratio of 1.4, the amount of light delivered to that farther point is cut in half. The rate at which the light will "fall off" as the distance increases. You want to make sure that the distance from the flash to each subject is near enough that it falls within, say, 1/3rd of a stop... or at least a half stop. When it gets to a full stop of difference then it's going to be very noticeable that the lighting is uneven. It would almost be better to have just a single light in center and then "wrap" the group in an arc so that they're all approximately the same distance from the light source (but if you're seriously thinking of doing that, make sure the nearest to farther subject distance are falling comfortably inside the depth of field for the shot.

From what I'm gathering about the flash sync, I'm going to need to use somewhere between f/11 and f/16 if it's sunny? And maybe be able to stop down a bit if it's overcast?

Thanks again!

The "sunny 16" exposure says that on a day with full sun (and we're talking middle-of-the-day sun... not early morning or late evening sun) you can use the baseline exposure of f/16 and then set the shutter speed to be the inverse of your ISO. So at ISO 100 (because there's no reason to use a faster ISO in full sun) you'd set the shutter speed to 1/100th. But that's JUST the baseline. Remember the exposure triangle... you can set any "equivalent" exposure you want. The Sunny 16 rule also goes on to say that "light" overcast or "light" shade will reduce the light by about 1 stop... so open up 1 stop to compensate. Medium is 2 stops, and heavy is 3 stops.

So in full sun you could use the base of ISO 100, f/16 and 1/100th. Or you could use an "equivalent" exposure of ISO 100, f/11, and 1/200th. You could even use an equivalent exposure of ISO 100, f/8, and 1/400th. BUT... YOU'RE ALSO USING FILL FLASH. That creates a constraint on your settings because you can't use a shutter speed which exceeds the flash sync speed of the camera (which, as I read the specs on the 6D, is 1/180th sec.) The shutter is capable of fully opening in half that time and then fully closing in half that time. If your flash fires before the mechanical focal plane shutter opens completely then part of the sensor will be covered when the flash fires and you'll have an uneven shot. That's why cameras have flash "sync" speeds.

The flashes aren't the main source of light when you're outside... the sun is. The point of the flash is just to ease the shadows so they're gentle shadows. When doing that, I find that starting out with the flash power reduced by 1 stop is a good starting point. Depending on the time of day I might reduce it a tiny bit less or a tiny bit more (often between -2/3rds or -1-1/3rd). Check your shots... you want to see that the sun is still casting a shadow, but the strength of it is reduced... that way the bright side of a person's face and the dark side of a person's face isn't several stops apart. Ideally you get them within about 1/3rd of a stop.

If using E-TTL mode then you just have to set the Flash Exposure Compensation setting to -1 and then tweak it up or down just slightly to get the look you want (you should go experiment doing this with your flash now... not on the day of the event. Be very comfortable knowing how to dial the flash power up and down in E-TTL mode.)

If using manual mode, then you do a bit a math, but it's easy math.

The Guide number of the speedlight is 60 meters. That's the distance that the flash can be from a subject and still provide adequate illumination for an exposure when firing at FULL power AND also assuming you have an f/1.0 lens (which of course you do not have... but the point of the f/1.0 assumption is that it makes the math VERY easy.)

All you do is divide the guide number of the flash by the actual f-stop you'll be using. So let's suppose you're using f/11. You'd divide 60 meters by 11 to arrive at 5.45 meters. That's the distance at which your flash can provide proper illumination at FULL power when the camera is set to f/11. You'd convert meters into feet ... which works out to about 18'.

Before you freak out that your flash isn't powerful enough to reach 25', keep in mind that you actually want to fire at 1 stop less (for fill), which means if you multiply 18 by 1.4 you'd get 25' again. (that means a subject 25' away will get about half as much light as a subject 18' away. So since the flashes are set to properly illuminate a subject 18' away... and get half the light at 25', but you WANT about half the light, this works out to be just what you wanted anyway.

Also keep in mind you can vary the amount of light EITHER by controlling the power level of the flash OR by moving the flash closer or farther from the subjects.

A shutter speed of 1/180th and f/11 is for FULL sun (no overcast of any kind... not even very thin clouds) and will technically be just a fraction of a stop over-exposed.

If there is some light overcast you'll need to open up the shutter by a stop to compensate. But in so doing, your flash will now be stronger than you had planned (since the flash and f-stop were set to compete with full sun and you no longer have full sun), so you'd have to dial the power back 1 stop on the flash when you open the shutter by 1 stop.

When you use flash enough, the relationship between f-stop, distance, and power levels will start to become 2nd nature.

 

[Basil5278]

A practical point for large (or even small!) groups is to get high. No, not that kind...
Use a step ladder and take your shot from above head height. That way, several things happen - your light is good (the group is looking up, towards the bright stuff and your lens is pointing down, away from it); people smile easier when they lift their heads slightly; you can group then in several rows and you won't have someone's face partly hidden behind a shoulder or flyaway hair; you'll find it easier to spot the blinkers or the eejit making bunny ears.

Wrap the group in an arc to reduce the effect of wide angle distortion (someone else said that too!) and don't be afraid to use the flash as fill in.

Practice in the neighbors kids (with permission of course) and you'll soon get the hang of it.

 

[afliegs]

It would almost be better to have just a single light in center and then "wrap" the group in an arc so that they're all approximately the same distance from the light source (but if you're seriously thinking of doing that, make sure the nearest to farther subject distance are falling comfortably inside the depth of field for the shot.

The more I look into it, the more I'm thinking I might actually just try a single light source, maybe above me. I figure that will be so much easier, using one 600 on camera as a trigger and one on a light stand maybe right behind me.

I'm trying to wrap my head around all of this, and I think my best bet is for simplicity. And from your earlier post, I think I should have plenty of depth of field.