Anyone from Utah?

[bace]

This story is spreading like crazy all over the world in music forums.

Really crazy story, but looks like it's "warranted" unfortunatly.

From what I can gather, a very large electronic music event was shut down by the national guard for not having the correct "large gathering" permits. Although the promoters are saying they did have the correct permits, the sheriff's report says otherwise.

Although there is some bad press attributed to the "rave" scene in north America, it's pretty safe to say with 100% accuracy that several swat teams and the National Guard, all with assault riffles, was excessive force.

It's obvious that drugs were present and being sold in the venue. Drugs are sold in pretty much any music gathering of any genre.

I don't know, i'm used to being in Toronto where problems like this just don't exist. The "rave" scene was all legit when it happened here, and when the government realized what was going on, they just put a ban on the public venues that were being used. They also passed legislation that made it financially impossible for promoters to have large events in rented wharehouses, or other private property. The events that are held now are all in clubs.

This kind off force has never been used. And it really makes me sick to think that some innocent people were very badly hurt and seriously shaken by a situation that they had no control over.

Here's the forum that pretty much documents the incident...

http://forums.utrave.org/showthread.php?t=19971

and here's the only video that seems to be available at this point. From what was said all other video's were confiscated by enforcers...

http://homepage.mac.com/apexgrin/FileSharing2.html

 

[Andrea K]

i dont really see what the problem is if i even understand what was going on...armed police officers shut down an illegal event, where illegal drugs were being used and sold...i have no problem with this. perhaps i dont understand what happened completely :scratch:

 

[bace]

From what the promoters have said they had all the right permits. It was completely legal event on a rented private property. They had a 2million dollar insurance policy, and were paying their taxes on the event. Even EMS was properly contracted out for medical purposes.

Drugs were being sold in the event dispite security checks. After it was discovered by undercovers that drugs were being sold they moved in.

The point seems to be that the force used to shut down the event was far too excesive. These aren't armed people. They're not aggresive people. There's an account of a young girl being malled by a police dog. If the cops wanted to shut down the event, all they had to do was find the promoter and tell them to turn the music off and make the announcment over a mic. Anyone that had drugs on them could be searched by dogs on the way out.

The video here shows atleast twenty national guard with assault riffles beating atleast two people.

I'm sorry, I just think the music and it's supporters have recieved far to much of a bad rap. There are people "trying" to make a LEGITIMATE living from this kind of music.

It's far to similar to what happened when rock became popular in the 60's. First is was completely banned. Then it became the soundtrack to massive peace movement. Why? because people were stoned and high on acid?

Different drugs, different kids, different music.

 

[Andrea K]

"The point seems to be that the force used to shut down the event was far too excesive. These aren't armed people. They're not aggresive people. There's an account of a young girl being malled by a police dog. If the cops wanted to shut down the event, all they had to do was find the promoter and tell them to turn the music off and make the announcment over a mic. Anyone that had drugs on them could be searched by dogs on the way out."


it only makes sense for the police to be armed. regardless of whether the people at the event were armed or not, the police didnt know that. essentially this was a drug bust, would you expect cops to storm into a crack house to bust the people inside without guns?

from what i've seen and heard, people who are under the influence of drugs or alcohol tend to become aggressive very easily, so it does make sense that the police would be no-nonsense about the event and have guns...its not like they came in and no one was armed and started shooting people. they simply came prepared

and do you honestly think that if they politely asked the promoter to turn the music off and ask everyone to leave people would actually listen. come on now

 

[bace]

"The point seems to be that the force used to shut down the event was far too excesive. These aren't armed people. They're not aggresive people. There's an account of a young girl being malled by a police dog. If the cops wanted to shut down the event, all they had to do was find the promoter and tell them to turn the music off and make the announcment over a mic. Anyone that had drugs on them could be searched by dogs on the way out."


it only makes sense for the police to be armed. regardless of whether the people at the event were armed or not, the police didnt know that. essentially this was a drug bust, would you expect cops to storm into a crack house to bust the people inside without guns?

from what i've seen and heard, people who are under the influence of drugs or alcohol tend to become aggressive very easily, so it does make sense that the police would be no-nonsense about the event and have guns...its not like they came in and no one was armed and started shooting people. they simply came prepared

and do you honestly think that if they politely asked the promoter to turn the music off and ask everyone to leave people would actually listen. come on now

Yes...actually they would.

Like I said. This is an electronic music event. If drugs have been done, it's usually extacy. If you've ever done extacy, which you probably haven't (kudo's to you) then you would know that being aggresive about anything is FAR from what's on your mind.

This wasn't a "crack house". This was a music event like any other music event. Would you expect a large group of the national guard to shut down a concert? I mean yeah, extra POLICE yes. Few extra cruisers, a paddy wagon and armed (with regular handguns and MAYBE a few shotguns to show seriousness) police is necessary....but the NATIONAL GUARD?

These guys are wearing full army fatigues. Carying sub-machine guns and using tear gas and dogs. All accompanied by a helicopter. It's estimated that this whole thing cost the state 20'000$ to orchestrate.

Don't get me wrong here. I know what's going on at these events. I've been going to them for over 5 years. But the fact is this isn't some mass drug addicted infestation of American youth. It's just a bunch of kids having fun. Yes there are drugs present. There are drugs present at every club/concert in America.

This music WILL be celebrated, lawfully or unlawfully. And it's one thing to send in an undercover and arrest the INDIVIDUALS who are selling drugs. It's a completely different thing to brutalize innocent people for just being on the same property as those INDIVIDUALS.

 

[MDowdey]

two words...probable cause.

im all for busting up this crap if they even thought that drugs were there. why do people need drugs in the first place at a music event? cause they are LOSERS.

 

[bace]

Also, their excuse for shutting down the event was "not having correct permits".


...not for a drug raid.

The actual promoters are saying they had the right permits but they were confiscated by the officers upon arrival. From my understanding of insurance companies they don't go handing out 2million dollar policies to illigitimate event promoters. Hopefully they required copies of all permits. Not only that, but the property owners would probably require copies of such permits.

Anyway, if all this shiz is false then I agree with you. The national guard have complete right to go in there. But seriously, it's never necessary to use that kind of force for a crowd of ravers, or anyone for that matter.

Imagine going to a large outdoor concert with your favourite band playing. For some reason the promoters didn't get a permit. At 11:30 PM you're jamming out when the music gets cut off. 5 minutes later you're nailed in the leg with a can of tear gas, and you're being chased by police dogs? You see a person getting malled? You see your best friend getting tazered because he refused to give up his digital camera?

What did YOU do wrong? Nothing. What did you friend do wrong? Nothing. Why are you being chased and tear gassed? Do you really want to stop and ask why?

Be realistic here. This wasn't a drug bust. These events aren't "crack houses" DESPITE what your local media might tell you. Get a clue.

 

[bace]

two words...probable cause.

im all for busting up this crap if they even thought that drugs were there. why do people need drugs in the first place at a music event? cause they are LOSERS.

So the next time you're at a concert and some guy beside you is smoking a joint are you gonna watching over your back for the national guard?

I know it's happening and I think it's wrong too. But you don't cut down the damn tree because of a few bad apples.

 

[MDowdey]

i still say whatever the excuse the bust was justified. you wont convince me otherwise.

all these shows produce are pacifier sucking, neo-hippie, stoners who cant dance and have to have drugs in order to "love the world...man"


bleh.

 

[MDowdey]

So the next time you're at a concert and some guy beside you is smoking a joint are you gonna watching over your back for the national guard?

your absolutely correct.

 

[bace]

i still say whatever the excuse the bust was justified. you wont convince me otherwise.

all these shows produce are pacifier sucking, neo-hippie, stoners who cant dance and have to have drugs in order to "love the world...man"


bleh.

That's not true, and it seems very closed minded of you to suggest that. Pigeon holing am entire musical genre because you don't understand it is a little twisted. I can see that attitude from someone in the sixties, but I thought we were past the days when people judged a book by it's cover.

 

[MDowdey]

you dont know me, you dont know my background.

ive created, performed and produced electronic music for the past 6 or 7 years of my life. now i will say that not everyone is like how i described, but most are into the scene because they are sheep and following the herd of others who came before them. its true with any genre of music.

ive been a musician for the past 16 years of my life, do not preach to me.

 

[bace]

you dont know me, you dont know my background.

ive created, performed and produced electronic music for the past 6 or 7 years of my life. now i will say that not everyone is like how i described, but most are into the scene because they are sheep and following the herd of others who came before them. its true with any genre of music.

ive been a musician for the past 16 years of my life, do not preach to me.

So why say something so sweeping and general?

I'm agreeing with you to an extent. I too have been involved in the music directly and indirectly for years, and it's safe to say that Toronto has advanced a lot further than most states south of the border. Events are now in our major clubs. And people like myself have grown up and moved on. Or are now attending more mature 19+ events. Business people, artists, musicians, 'photographers'....we all still attend clubs to listen to the music.

10 years ago i would agree there was a huge problem, but if this event was all legit, I think the force used on these young people was a little much.

 

[terri]

I'd like to see actual objective reporting of the event.

I would have to agree based on what I've heard that undue force was used - but that's just from what I've read here. There may be other circumstances regarding this promotor that we know nothing about that actually provoked this "raid", you know?
At first glance, it does look terrible. Obviously, no one goes to a concert expecting to get maced by the local law enforcement, let alone the National Guard. That's not the same thing as sending in a SWAT team to bust up a known crack house and getting those drugs off the street.

 

[bace]

Atleast someone agrees with me here.

Like I said in the very SECOND sentence "looks like it's 'warranted'".

If proper permits were not obtained, then they had a 'valid' reason. I just think they've used a little too much force, and in the process caused bodily harm to some innocent people. Although drugs were present, you could find drugs in any group of young people in any venue, for any type of music.





...except maybe some kind of christian music.