Anyone from Utah?

[bace]

The sad thing is, these days, a lot of the dealers and whatnot are 'kids'.

Agreed, and they should be charged accordingly. The problem here is that "raves" are automatically considered to be drug infested. It is assumed that everyone at a rave is a criminal.

The sheriffs found out that the party was illegal monthes in advance. Did they inform the promoters and warn ticket holders?

No, they set up a sting operation to uncover barely any drugs some fake money, and a gun that belonged to the property owner. All were charged and right fully so.

But what about the confiscated camera's? What about the 100lb girl who was tazered for leaving peacefully? What the about the several people who were beaten for what seemed like just asking questions like "what about my car?"..."can I get my bag of BELONGINGS from MY TENT?". Since when is ok to waive the rights of all those people because of the illegal activity of the few?

 

[terri]

I don't think 1400 kids should be hearded around by a small army cause they were dancing in the same area as some petty dealers.

But that's just me I guess.

Now, now. No crying in baseball....OR at raves. I think we're fundamentally on the same page here.

But let's be realistic. 1,400 kids is a lot of bodies. Toss in the some drugs and weapons and within minutes, those dancing bodies can become a mob. How else would you attempt to handle them?

Being caught in a mob can be extremely unpleasant, as well. Your mentality can change on a dime from thinking of that small army as "fascist pigs" to "law enforcement trying to help".

Situational awareness must rule the day.

 

[Chase]

This sure is a fun one. While I'm sure there is a lot more to the story on both sides, I think the bottom line for me is this. If the event was deemed to be illegal (whether it be permits, drugs, etc) and the decision was made to break it up, a showing of force is the only option for the law enforcement officers to have a chance at staying safe. Even without weapons, take a group of 1,400 people that could decide to fight you, and you can guess what the outcome will be. Show enough force and they will generally decide fighting you is a bad idea.

I'm still sure there is a lot more to this story, but I can at least understand why they swarmed they way they did. Also, to imply that every one of these 1,400 people was peaceful and just trying to leave....I have trouble with that. Whenever you have that many people together, chances are there will be at least a few troublemakers.

 

[photogoddess]

They're not heavy metal crazy bastards.

Headbanger and proud of it!

PS - I'm also a business owner and mother of 4 well adjusted teenagers. No sniff sniff here for me. Now who is making generalizations?

 

[bace]

And honestly, these kids are from white Suburbia. Most of them would be affraid to see cop lights. They would never stick around to become a "mob". Throw a cop on the stage and announce that the correct laws were not followed and this event will be shut down, and you've solved the problem.

It's one thing to take precautions like having the swat team on site. I can understand the importance of being "prepared" in a situation like that. But this looks like they just went in there guns blazing. Watch the video. There was no warning, there was no request to have the people on site leave the property. They just went in there and stormed the place. Taking down random youths here and there. Shooting the tear gas pre-emtively. Basically they were making sure they would find drugs on people, and waiving all the rights of those that didn't to find those who did.

 

[hobbes28]

And honestly, these kids are from white Suburbia. Most of them would be affraid to see cop lights. They would never stick around to become a "mob". Throw a cop on the stage and announce that the correct laws were not followed and this event will be shut down, and you've solved the problem.

It's one thing to take precautions like having the swat team on site. I can understand the importance of being "prepared" in a situation like that. But this looks like they just went in there guns blazing. Watch the video. There was no warning, there was no request to have the people on site leave the property. They just went in there and stormed the place. Taking down random youths here and there. Shooting the tear gas pre-emtively. Basically they were making sure they would find drugs on people, and waiving all the rights of those that didn't to find those who did.

I think this conversation is going into a place that we don't want it to... Where exactly was Columbine High School?

Have you ever seen the movie "A Bug's Life"? There is a part where the grasshoppers don't want to go back because it seems insignificant to travel all that way and Hopper reminds them of the power in numbers. The police see every large group this way. All it takes is a few people to see that they outnumber the police before a small break up becomes a riot. 1,400 people is a lot of people and it would only take around 10% of that to out number the police. Can you think of 1 person out of every ten you know that would fight back? I know I can.

 

[Corry]

I think this conversation is going into a place that we don't want it to... Where exactly was Columbine High School?

Have you ever seen the movie "A Bug's Life"? There is a part where the grasshoppers don't want to go back because it seems insignificant to travel all that way and Hopper reminds them of the power in numbers. The police see every large group this way. All it takes is a few people to see that they outnumber the police before a small break up becomes a riot. 1,400 people is a lot of people and it would only take around 10% of that to out number the police. Can you think of 1 person out of every ten you know that would fight back? I know I can.

I think for me the percentage is much higher than 10.

 

[bace]

Like I said, it's one thing to have the National Guard and police ready for anything. It's another to start dishing out violence to begin with.

People fight violence with violence right?

It's VERY common for these things to get shut down. It would come as no surprise to those people if an event was cancelled. It comes a long with the scene, and believe me, I'm sure one in ten people would be stupid enough to cause some shiz. But those people are the ones you deal with.

If you ask me, I'm personally more likely to react in violence when I see my innocent friends being attacked by dogs and tazered than if I was just asked to leave a rave. Which I know to begin with always has a possibility of being shut down.

 

[hobbes28]

It comes a long with the scene, and believe me, I'm sure one in ten people would be stupid enough to cause some shiz. But those people are the ones you deal with.

And you can spot those out by the name tags they're wearing on their shirts?

 

[bace]

And you can spot those out by the name tags they're wearing on their shirts?

Bah. This is useless. They're all criminals then. They deserve no respect? They deserve no rights? I don't care how big a group you're in when you SEE people with machine guns...you walk the other way.

 

[MDowdey]

Bah. This is useless. They're all criminals then.

agreed. you are only as innocent as the people you are hanging around.

 

[Artemis]

Im undecided, but personally I feel we attack the police too much...they are the good guys remember...

 

[bace]

:roll:

 

[bace]

Im undecided, but personally I feel we attack the police too much...they are the good guys remember...

I agree completely here. I love cops. I've never done anything Illegal...that I got caught for. And if I did do something Illegal and got caught I would deal with it properly because I know why they react the way they do. This however just seems far to overboard.

They KNEW the event was Illegal BEFORE it happened why didn't they just turn people away before hand? Stop the "Mob" from even becoming a "mob".

No, they wanted to make this another example of why "raves" shouldn't happen. Scare the **** out of everyone there. Well, if you ask me, it's done the opposite. It's angered thousands across the country so far.

 

[Chiller]

They're not heavy metal crazy bastards.

QUOTE]

Been a metalhead for over 20 years and played the Toronto bar scene for around 15 of them . Im clean and love the music.
Problems like you have described have been in Toronto for years, even before I started playing clubs. I saw various "boozecans" busted for the same reason, and that was in the 80's. If you were there, you were just as guilty as the next person. That is the way the law would see it. I think the main concern with the police is saving a life. The drugs that are associated with anything, whether it is a concert, or a rave, somebody is selling something illegal that could eventually kill somebody. THey are only doing their jobs.

http://www.canoe.ca/Health0004/06_drugs.html An interesting article on raves and drugs.