B&H Got Some 'Splaining To Do

[runnah]

Privilege is a buzz word if you have it. It's a very concrete reality to those who don't. This doesn't mean it explains everything or can be used to excuse anyone from doing their best and working hard, but it's incredibly frustrating to see it dismissed by those who don't fully understand what it's like to live life without it.

I didn't dismiss privilege as it exists.
I understand it, I have it because I am a well-educated white guy with a solid career.
But dismissing a person's statement indirectly, when they are in the conversation, is disrespectful and is an attempt to make a point by bullying without addressing the issue.

Fine. Braineack and others, outwardly seems like well educated white males who grew up with means and probably was not left wanting for much. I may be wrong on this but when some rich white guy like him comments on how undocumented immigrant laborers needs "buck up" or "find a new job" it sends me around the bend. I am sure he works "hard" and does a good job but saying this to some guy who does back breaking labor for 12hrs has as much merit as me sharing my opinion on astro-physics.

 

[waday]

I didn't want to direct it at anyone, lest I hurt some feelings.

Oops...

 

[rexbobcat]

Privilege is a buzz word if you have it. It's a very concrete reality to those who don't. This doesn't mean it explains everything or can be used to excuse anyone from doing their best and working hard, but it's incredibly frustrating to see it dismissed by those who don't fully understand what it's like to live life without it.

I didn't dismiss privilege as it exists.
I understand it, I have it because I am a well-educated white guy with a solid career.
But dismissing a person's statement indirectly, when they are in the conversation, is disrespectful and is an attempt to make a point by bullying without addressing the issue.

Because this thread was a bastion of respect before that comment.

 

[JacaRanda]

I don't see bullying. I saw that Runnah responded directly to the comment by Braineack. Not sure if Braineack's comment was sarcastic or not (hard to tell with him sometimes).

View attachment 109820

Let's play a game to see how many ignorant comments can be made...

I find that the more privileged the individual the less empathy they have for those without privilege.

I have the privilege to not be offended by this comment, especially if I am privileged and it does not apply to me.

 

[tirediron]

....Fine. Braineack and others, outwardly seems like well educated white males who grew up with means and probably was not left wanting for much.

The days of "privilege" being a birthright are long gone for all but the very, very smallest fraction of a percent of the population. Those who have it, have, by and large earned it. They have wored to get where they are and many (most?) have done manual labour and other unskilled jobs on their way "up the ladder". In other words, there is opportunity, but it's not going to be thrust at you, it must be earned, and there's no reason why anyone can't earn it.

.... I may be wrong on this but when some rich white guy like him

And his skin colour matters why in this context?

....comments on how undocumented immigrant laborers

I may be wrong, and if so, I retract this comment entirely, but is not "undocumented worker" the current vernacular for someone working in the country illegally? That is without papers/work-permit/etc? And does that not make said worker a criminal (conviction aside)?

....needs "buck up" or "find a new job" it sends me around the bend. I am sure he works "hard" and does a good job but saying this to some guy who does back breaking labor for 12hrs has as much merit as me sharing my opinion on astro-physics.

Why? There's a growing trend toward people feeling that employers owe them something. Other than the agreed upon wage and benefits, etc in exchange for the agreed upon work, what is the employee actually owed? Granted, it's always nice to work for someone you like, and in a happy, comfortable environment, but that's not always possible. There are always unpleasant jobs that need to be done, and if you don't like the sort of job that you are being hired for, the only person you can blame is you. Now if the company is acting illegally, they too need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but I would be very surprised if this was (assuming that the allegations contain at lesat a grain of truth) anything more than a few bad supervisors acting independantly.

 

[runnah]

....Fine. Braineack and others, outwardly seems like well educated white males who grew up with means and probably was not left wanting for much.

The days of "privilege" being a birthright are long gone for all but the very, very smallest fraction of a percent of the population. Those who have it, have, by and large earned it. They have wored to get where they are and many (most?) have done manual labour and other unskilled jobs on their way "up the ladder". In other words, there is opportunity, but it's not going to be thrust at you, it must be earned, and there's no reason why anyone can't earn it.

.... I may be wrong on this but when some rich white guy like him

And his skin colour matters why in this context?

....comments on how undocumented immigrant laborers

I may be wrong, and if so, I retract this comment entirely, but is not "undocumented worker" the current vernacular for someone working in the country illegally? That is without papers/work-permit/etc? And does that not make said worker a criminal (conviction aside)?

....needs "buck up" or "find a new job" it sends me around the bend. I am sure he works "hard" and does a good job but saying this to some guy who does back breaking labor for 12hrs has as much merit as me sharing my opinion on astro-physics.

Why? There's a growing trend toward people feeling that employers owe them something. Other than the agreed upon wage and benefits, etc in exchange for the agreed upon work, what is the employee actually owed? Granted, it's always nice to work for someone you like, and in a happy, comfortable environment, but that's not always possible. There are always unpleasant jobs that need to be done, and if you don't like the sort of job that you are being hired for, the only person you can blame is you. Now if the company is acting illegally, they too need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but I would be very surprised if this was (assuming that the allegations contain at lesat a grain of truth) anything more than a few bad supervisors acting independantly.

1. Are you kidding? It very much still matters what family/town/street you are from.
2. Race does matter. The deck is still very stack against those who are not white males in most parts of the country.
3. Undocumented doesn't always mean illegal, it can mean employers will hire people and pay them "under the table".
4. It is the responsibility of an employer to provide a safe, healthy work environment for its employees and to also pay them a livable wage. But not all companies are the moral and will often take liberty with the definitions of "safe" and "livable".

 

[rexbobcat]

....Fine. Braineack and others, outwardly seems like well educated white males who grew up with means and probably was not left wanting for much.

The days of "privilege" being a birthright are long gone for all but the very, very smallest fraction of a percent of the population. Those who have it, have, by and large earned it. They have wored to get where they are and many (most?) have done manual labour and other unskilled jobs on their way "up the ladder". In other words, there is opportunity, but it's not going to be thrust at you, it must be earned, and there's no reason why anyone can't earn it.

Technically, yes. Realistically, no. You are more likely to have better connections the more affluent are you. More connections means an easier time finding employment, and more money also means you are not sweating bullets to pay your rent, so you can be more discriminating with the jobs you take.

While this doesn't necessarily mean that an impoverished person can't become financially successful, it makes it much more difficult and less likely that they will considering that the American public sees the poor as a nuisance as well as the fact that subsisting makes it more difficult to truly thrive.

If you say that everyone who is successful is that way because they deserve it, then that implies that everyone who isn't also deserves it.

The concept that America is a pure meritocracy needs to be abolished.

.... I may be wrong on this but when some rich white guy like him

And his skin colour matters why in this context?

Because race plays a role in the aforementioned privilege. Especially considering that there are still places where this happens:
Confederate Flag Supporters In Georgia Indicted On Terrorism Charges
And this happened back home in Texas:
Texas Tech HSC officials condemn 'intolerant language' graffiti found on TTUHSC seal
This also happened back home:


Privilege is found in more than one place. You are less likely to face discrimination if you are white, male, Christian, and heterosexual.

....comments on how undocumented immigrant laborers

I may be wrong, and if so, I retract this comment entirely, but is not "undocumented worker" the current vernacular for someone working in the country illegally? That is without papers/work-permit/etc? And does that not make said worker a criminal (conviction aside)?

I don't understand the point as it pertains to what we're discussing. We're not talking about their legal status. The points being made are about how, because they are here illegally, it's not like they can just find another job.

....needs "buck up" or "find a new job" it sends me around the bend. I am sure he works "hard" and does a good job but saying this to some guy who does back breaking labor for 12hrs has as much merit as me sharing my opinion on astro-physics.

Why? There's a growing trend toward people feeling that employers owe them something. Other than the agreed upon wage and benefits, etc in exchange for the agreed upon work, what is the employee actually owed? Granted, it's always nice to work for someone you like, and in a happy, comfortable environment, but that's not always possible. There are always unpleasant jobs that need to be done, and if you don't like the sort of job that you are being hired for, the only person you can blame is you. Now if the company is acting illegally, they too need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but I would be very surprised if this was (assuming that the allegations contain at lesat a grain of truth) anything more than a few bad supervisors acting independantly.

Do you think we should do away with minimum wage laws and health regulations because the corporations will give them livable wages and safe work environments out of the goodness of their hearts?

I'm sure the workers in Apple's Chinese factories would love to hear your thoughts. That is, unless, you think they should just go and find another job.
Apple 'failing to protect Chinese factory workers' - BBC News

 

[limr]

1. Are you kidding? It very much still matters what family/town/street you are from.
2. Race does matter. The deck is still very stack against those who are not white males in most parts of the country.
3. Undocumented doesn't always mean illegal, it can mean employers will hire people and pay them "under the table".
4. It is the responsibility of an employer to provide a safe, healthy work environment for its employees and to also pay them a livable wage. But not all companies are the moral and will often take liberty with the definitions of "safe" and "livable".

And if I may add to #4 - companies who employ people illegally are also committing criminal acts. Why aren't they being blamed?

Race, gender, and ethnicity still do matter very much. It might not be explicit as in the past, but it's still real and significant.

 

[waday]

And if I may add to #4 - companies who employ people illegally are also committing criminal acts. Why aren't they being blamed?

This is a very good and real question that needs to be asked. Unfortunately, it's easier to blame the worker and turn a blind eye to the company.

 

[vintagesnaps]

Safety and health, yes; has OSHA or any other regulatory agency been called in to look at safety procedures at the warehouse?

There does not seem to be a quick, simple process to get legal status, and I think it is a process; if they don't have legal status yet that doesn't mean safety regulations at a workplace shouldn't be followed but it may complicate trying to get medical care or employee benefits, etc.

 

[tirediron]

1. Are you kidding? It very much still matters what family/town/street you are from.
2. Race does matter. The deck is still very stack against those who are not white males in most parts of the country.
3. Undocumented doesn't always mean illegal, it can mean employers will hire people and pay them "under the table".
4. It is the responsibility of an employer to provide a safe, healthy work environment for its employees and to also pay them a livable wage. But not all companies are the moral and will often take liberty with the definitions of "safe" and "livable".

1. Okay; I don't see why, but I'll take your word for it.
2. Perhaps this is a national issue; I've certainly seen no evidence of it around me.
3. Ahh... got it. Thanks for clarifying.
4. Safe, yes. "livable" (as in a wage one can live on, I assume), no. Fair, yes, livable no. Of course "livable" varies by region, but in my area the bottom end of "livable", factoring in taxes and so un, would be about $30,000, which works out to around $16/hr. There are plenty of jobs which are simply not worth $16/hr. Leave us also remember that the more we force companies to pay for entry-level/unskilled labour, the more we pay for their product/service.

 

[rexbobcat]

1. Are you kidding? It very much still matters what family/town/street you are from.
2. Race does matter. The deck is still very stack against those who are not white males in most parts of the country.
3. Undocumented doesn't always mean illegal, it can mean employers will hire people and pay them "under the table".
4. It is the responsibility of an employer to provide a safe, healthy work environment for its employees and to also pay them a livable wage. But not all companies are the moral and will often take liberty with the definitions of "safe" and "livable".

1. Okay; I don't see why, but I'll take your word for it.
2. Perhaps this is a national issue; I've certainly seen no evidence of it around me.
3. Ahh... got it. Thanks for clarifying.
4. Safe, yes. "livable" (as in a wage one can live on, I assume), no. Fair, yes, livable no. Of course "livable" varies by region, but in my area the bottom end of "livable", factoring in taxes and so un, would be about $30,000, which works out to around $16/hr. There are plenty of jobs which are simply not worth $16/hr. Leave us also remember that the more we force companies to pay for entry-level/unskilled labour, the more we pay for their product/service.

U.S. Department of Labor -- History -- Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938:

In 1938 they said that a minimum wage of $.25/hour would ruin the economy.

Minimum Wage | Wex Legal Dictionary / Encyclopedia | LII / Legal Information Institute

"The purpose of the minimum wage was to stabilize the post-depression economy and protect the workers in the labor force. The minimum wage was designed to create a minimum standard of living to protect the health and well-being of employees."

 

[terri]

Buzzkill time! Buzzkill time!

Why do I have to enter this thread like a mean old Nurse Ratched with tiny paper cups containing happy pills for everyone?

This is becoming borderline political, at best. It would be perfect in the Subscriber's forum. Quick! Everyone here make sure to subscribe so that if I am forced to move this thread, you can all play along.

 

[rexbobcat]

Wait, where is this going?

 

[tirediron]

..."The purpose of the minimum wage was to stabilize the post-depression economy and protect the workers in the labor force. The minimum wage was designed to create a minimum standard of living to protect the health and well-being of employees."

I would submit that neither your federal minimum wage of $7.25/hr, nor most state minimum wages (as low $2.00/hr (OK) to a whopping $10.50/hr (DC)) come even remotely close to filling that requirement!