Canna

[smoke665]

Heat and lack of attention while we were gone has just about decimated the flowers in our yard. This poor little Canna has survived despite the odds. Comments and Critique welcomed.

 

[jcdeboever]

Good sharpness red rendering. It shows you understand your camera. Unfortunately, the state of the flower and ground showing hurt the image. I do this occasionally because I am drawn to the color and profile. I see what your after but when the flower is in this cycle, we need to walk away or spend a lot of time in post. Google botanical gardens near me or arboretum near me for fresh subjects. You have a great eye and good sense of composition.

 

[smoke665]

Thanks @jcdeboever. This past month of triple digit temperatures has really taken a toll on everything here. This was literally the only flower remaining in the bed.

That said the flower wasn't quite as bad as the image portrayed. I've been having problems with PSP 8 and the K3 II since I got the camera. What the camera records and what PSP displays is very different, especially when using pixel shift. It seems that PSP tends to over saturate the dark colors really bad. Then when you bring the bring the saturation down it makes the image kind of flat.

As an example, this first screen capture is from the flower processed in Pentax Utility 5 and saved as a TIFF.

The second screen capture is from the same TIFF image opened in PSP to begin editing.

If I open and process the raw file in PSP first, the over saturation isn't quite as bad, but I lose a lot shadow and highlight detail, especially when there are reds. Didn't seem to have these issues with the K30. Considering the problems I've had with PSP and its' instability (crashes a lot), I think it's time to move on.

 

[Ysarex88 82]

Thanks @jcdeboever. This past month of triple digit temperatures has really taken a toll on everything here. This was literally the only flower remaining in the bed.

That said the flower wasn't quite as bad as the image portrayed. I've been having problems with PSP 8 and the K3 II since I got the camera. What the camera records and what PSP displays is very different, especially when using pixel shift. It seems that PSP tends to over saturate the dark colors really bad. Then when you bring the bring the saturation down it makes the image kind of flat.

As an example, this first screen capture is from the flower processed in Pentax Utility 5 and saved as a TIFF.
View attachment 125512

The second screen capture is from the same TIFF image opened in PSP to begin editing.
View attachment 125513

If I open and process the raw file in PSP first, the over saturation isn't quite as bad, but I lose a lot shadow and highlight detail, especially when there are reds. Didn't seem to have these issues with the K30. Considering the problems I've had with PSP and its' instability (crashes a lot), I think it's time to move on.

I don't want to hijack your thread here by posting other images, but I can help at least explain what's happen here and the visuals will help.

You're dealing here with a classic digital camera problem -- highly saturated reds (and to a lesser degree highly saturated colors), but reds are special case. Do a Google image search for knockout roses and you can find as many thousands of examples as you like of digital cameras melting down over saturated reds.

Good news: They all do it so you're not alone and your camera and software aren't busted.

Bad news: The problem isn't going away.

First two raw file histograms:

On the left is a typical blue sky-lots of foreground-front sunlit landscape -- everybody's vacation picture. Notice the purple line and the relationship it identifies between the three color channels. The green channel seems to indicate nearly a stop more exposure than the other two. Frequently the red channel will lag behind even the blue channel a bit in an average photo. You're seeing the result of exposure through the color filter array laid on top of the sensor. The red filter is darker than the green filter -- compensation for that is required.

One the right is a photo of a very red rose. The purple line indicates a complete reversal of the typical relationship between the the exposure through the red and green filters of the CFA. The processing software that makes an RGB photo from these raw files is still going to apply some compensation for the darker red filter and when it does in the case of the rose photo melt down occurs.

The engineers are aware of this problem but there's not a lot they can do. The camera software and our raw conversion software all have to assume some degree of average conditions. The camera doesn't know you have just tried to photograph a highly saturated red flower. Likewise the raw conversion software upon opening and default processing the photo doesn't know it's dealing with this special case. Next illustration -- this is to some extent for amusement, but it further illustrates the problem:

The red rose photo (histogram above right). Each of these four photos represent default attempts by processing software to process that image with the red/green channel relationship literally flipped from what they expect. Every one is a crash and burn and in every case the red channel in these RGB images is nuked into oblivion.

The camera JPEG: I don't save or use camera JPEGs so I never touch the picture controls on my cameras. The camera JPEG could be better if I had set a custom WB and used the picture controls to reduce saturation and contrast. Unfortunately there's no way to do that and tell the camera -- only the reds, leave the greens alone -- end result just won't suck as bad.

Adobe's default: The rose is an oversaturated posterized blob of detail-less color. That's OK. Adobe's not helping me very much up front but I don't want their help. The tools in ACR/LR will allow me to process this photo.

Capture One's default: C1 is recognizing the problem and making a effort. That's OK but frankly I don't need to see it -- to some extent they're just annoying me. Again I will process the photo and C1's tools are excellent to that end.

PhotoNinja's default looks a lot like Adobe's -- that's not what I show above. PhotoNinja has an option to set a "hands off my photo please!" default which does minimal processing to open the image. I used that and I often like that as a starting point.

The point: All of the raw converters are hurting here just as the camera software did. We've got Fuji, Adobe, Phase One, and Picture Code all crashing and burning over a simple photo of a red rose.

The tools to do the job are in the raw converters but this is without question going to be a hands-on job in which the automated assists all work against you.

Joe

 

[jcdeboever]

Thanks @jcdeboever. This past month of triple digit temperatures has really taken a toll on everything here. This was literally the only flower remaining in the bed.

That said the flower wasn't quite as bad as the image portrayed. I've been having problems with PSP 8 and the K3 II since I got the camera. What the camera records and what PSP displays is very different, especially when using pixel shift. It seems that PSP tends to over saturate the dark colors really bad. Then when you bring the bring the saturation down it makes the image kind of flat.

As an example, this first screen capture is from the flower processed in Pentax Utility 5 and saved as a TIFF.
View attachment 125512

The second screen capture is from the same TIFF image opened in PSP to begin editing.
View attachment 125513

If I open and process the raw file in PSP first, the over saturation isn't quite as bad, but I lose a lot shadow and highlight detail, especially when there are reds. Didn't seem to have these issues with the K30. Considering the problems I've had with PSP and its' instability (crashes a lot), I think it's time to move on.

I don't want to hijack your thread here by posting other images, but I can help at least explain what's happen here and the visuals will help.

You're dealing here with a classic digital camera problem -- highly saturated reds (and to a lesser degree highly saturated colors), but reds are special case. Do a Google image search for knockout roses and you can find as many thousands of examples as you like of digital cameras melting down over saturated reds.

Good news: They all do it so you're not alone and your camera and software aren't busted.

Bad news: The problem isn't going away.

First two raw file histograms:

View attachment 125534

On the left is a typical blue sky-lots of foreground-front sunlit landscape -- everybody's vacation picture. Notice the purple line and the relationship it identifies between the three color channels. The green channel seems to indicate nearly a stop more exposure than the other two. Frequently the red channel will lag behind even the blue channel a bit in an average photo. You're seeing the result of exposure through the color filter array laid on top of the sensor. The red filter is darker than the green filter -- compensation for that is required.

One the right is a photo of a very red rose. The purple line indicates a complete reversal of the typical relationship between the the exposure through the red and green filters of the CFA. The processing software that makes an RGB photo from these raw files is still going to apply some compensation for the darker red filter and when it does in the case of the rose photo melt down occurs.

The engineers are aware of this problem but there's not a lot they can do. The camera software and our raw conversion software all have to assume some degree of average conditions. The camera doesn't know you have just tried to photograph a highly saturated red flower. Likewise the raw conversion software upon opening and default processing the photo doesn't know it's dealing with this special case. Next illustration -- this is to some extent for amusement, but it further illustrates the problem:

View attachment 125536

The red rose photo (histogram above right). Each of these four photos represent default attempts by processing software to process that image with the red/green channel relationship literally flipped from what they expect. Everyone is a crash and burn and in every case the red channel in these RGB images is nuked into oblivion.

The camera JPEG: I don't save or use camera JPEGs so I never touch the picture controls on my cameras. The camera JPEG could be better if I had set a custom WB and used the picture controls to reduce saturation and contrast. Unfortunately there's no way to do that and tell the camera -- only the reds, leave the greens alone -- end result just won't suck as bad.

Adobe's default: The rose is an oversaturated posterized blob of detail-less color. That's OK. Adobe's not helping me very much up front but I don't want their help. The tools in ACR/LR will allow me to process this photo.

Capture One's default: C1 is recognizing the problem and making a effort. That's OK but frankly I don't need to see it -- to some extent they're just annoying me. Again I will process the photo and C1's tools are excellent to that end.

PhotoNinja's default looks a lot like Adobe's -- that's not what I show above. PhotoNinja has an option to set a "hands off my photo please!" default which does minimal processing to open the image. I used that and I often like that as a starting point.

The point: All of the raw converters are hurting here just as the camera software did. We've got Fuji, Adobe, Phase One, and Picture Code all crashing and burning over a simple photo of a red rose.

The tools to do the job are in the raw converters but this is without question going to be a hands-on job in which the automated assists all work against you.

Joe

View attachment 125538

Excellent explanation.

 

[smoke665]

The point: All of the raw converters are hurting here just as the camera software did. We've got Fuji, Adobe, Phase One, and Picture Code all crashing and burning over a simple photo of a red rose.

The tools to do the job are in the raw converters but this is without question going to be a hands-on job in which the automated assists all work against you.

I actually remember most of this from your previous explanation, and as always, I greatly appreciate your knowledge. Admittedly Red is my nemesis, but the changes between the Pentax K30 and the K3 II continue to cause me grief. I had just about resolved my issues until I started playing with Pixel Shift. I think I answered my own question as to the difference between what I see on the screen using Pentax Utility 5 raw converter, and using a converter within PSP, CC or LR. The Pentax converter utilizes the same Algorithms as the camera, so the view I see is being altered according to that software. In other words this - (screen capture Pentax Utility software view)

What I don't understand yet is why when I use Pentax Utility to convert the raw file to a TIFF or JPEG and then load that image into PSP, CC or LR I get this - (screen capture PSP view)

Even more confusing is when I open the file in Windows Explorer I see the same thing, but when I open the file in Windows 10 "Photos App", I see the same as the Pentax view.

When I open the raw image in PSP, LR or CC the image is over saturated (not as bad), but still requires bringing the saturation down. However when you do that it seems to take out some of the fine detail that the camera captured. I'm still researching, but apparently there is a "motion movement" Algorithm in the Pentax converter that might not be playing nice with other software. This is all new to me so I'm learning as I go.

 

[Ysarex88 82]

.....The Pentax converter utilizes the same Algorithms as the camera, so the view I see is being altered according to that software. In other words this - (screen capture Pentax Utility software view)
View attachment 125545

What I don't understand yet is why when I use Pentax Utility to convert the raw file to a TIFF or JPEG and then load that image into PSP, CC or LR I get this - (screen capture PSP view)
View attachment 125546

Even more confusing is when I open the file in Windows Explorer I see the same thing, but when I open the file in Windows 10 "Photos App", I see the same as the Pentax view.

Oh! I kinda missed that from your earlier post. That sounds very much like ICC profile problems. First question: Is your display calibrated and if so using what device?

Best first guess: Problem with the display ICC profile and software correctly processing that profile.

Joe

 

[smoke665]

Best first guess: Problem with the display ICC profile and software correctly processing that profile.

Even a blind pig finds an acorn every now and then. After researching some more, there was an update to Pentax Utility the end of April 2016 that addressed problems with saturation in pixel shift, and added "motion movement" control. After updating to the latest, it will now create a TIFF image that will load into the CC and LR (haven't tried PSP) and look the same on all. The advantage is that you can drop the saturation in Pentax without losing all that extra detail created by Pixel Shift. Will redo the photo based on the new processing and repost later today.

 

[smoke665]

Joe

If you're interested, went into a little more detail on the Pixel Shift problems and solutions on the Pentax Camera link. I'm not nearly as technical as you but I think I'm making progress on the problem

 

[Ysarex88 82]

Best first guess: Problem with the display ICC profile and software correctly processing that profile.

Even a blind pig finds an acorn every now and then. After researching some more, there was an update to Pentax Utility the end of April 2016 that addressed problems with saturation in pixel shift, and added "motion movement" control. After updating to the latest, it will now create a TIFF image that will load into the CC and LR (haven't tried PSP) and look the same on all. The advantage is that you can drop the saturation in Pentax without losing all that extra detail created by Pixel Shift. Will redo the photo based on the new processing and repost later today.

That sounds interesting but it doesn't explain that you said this: "Even more confusing is when I open the file in Windows Explorer I see the same thing, but when I open the file in Windows 10 "Photos App", I see the same as the Pentax view." You have two apps that are opening the same file and displaying it differently. That's going to be some kind of an ICC profile problem.

Joe

 

[smoke665]

Best first guess: Problem with the display ICC profile and software correctly processing that profile.

Even a blind pig finds an acorn every now and then. After researching some more, there was an update to Pentax Utility the end of April 2016 that addressed problems with saturation in pixel shift, and added "motion movement" control. After updating to the latest, it will now create a TIFF image that will load into the CC and LR (haven't tried PSP) and look the same on all. The advantage is that you can drop the saturation in Pentax without losing all that extra detail created by Pixel Shift. Will redo the photo based on the new processing and repost later today.

That sounds interesting but it doesn't explain that you said this: "Even more confusing is when I open the file in Windows Explorer I see the same thing, but when I open the file in Windows 10 "Photos App", I see the same as the Pentax view." You have two apps that are opening the same file and displaying it differently. That's going to be some kind of an ICC profile problem.

Joe[/QUOT

I've verified that my calibrated profile (x rite) is being used across the board. I did find that the Win 10 Photo app had an option to apply automatic enhancements that I turned off. As to color everything is now pretty much the same across the board. What still remains an issue is the loss of fine detail (it kind of gets lost due to over saturation) when converting DNG Raw files with any 3rd party software. However since downloading the updated version of the Pentax Utility, I can now process and save as a TIFF, that will open in a 3rd party software for further editing (without being distorted). Researching the Pentax users sites, this also seems to be the accepted method of getting around it. Most of the processing techniques done in-camera to make a jpg are not shared with 3rd parties. IOW, the color profiles, curves/etc that they use in the D/DS/DL/etc can only be guessed at. 3rd parties are market driven, so their processing techniques I think are geared more to the more popular Nikon and Canon.