CLS vs. Manual Flash for Product Photography

Mystery · Oct 23, 2013

First off, I am a beginner. So accept my apologies if I am misunderstanding a few things. I have zero experience with CLS or any flash aside from the built-in on my camera. I am setting up a studio to shoot product photos for my own product line. Almost everything is white background and I have had very good (in my opinion) results with continuous lighting. I was running 3 softboxes from Cowboy Studio on a backlit white lexan background. The Cowboy Studio lights fell apart and I returned them. Now, I need to figure out what lights I am going to use. I am shooting on a Nikon D40 right now, but will be upgrading to a D300S. Since the D300S has CLS command built in, I was considering just lighting with speedlights and trying to use CLS features for my flashes. However, I was doing pretty well shooting continuos lights in manual, and I am a little afraid of letting the camera run the show to get good white background shots. Here is an example of what I am shooting.

I am also shooting some portrait style photos like these.

My product photos are small products, model shots are either dogs, or people from about head to knee, basically like apparel shots. I originally wanted to go with 3 speedlights like sb700 or sb910 with umbrellas, but I really don't want to spend that much. I thought I found the perfect solution when I found the Yongnuo YN-565EX or the Yongnuo YN-568EX because they advertise as being CLS compatible and under $200 each. But with more research, they don't seem to have CLS functions at all, and I am starting to think I may be better off buying the cheaper ($105) YN-565EX and running them manually. Or as another option, just getting some inexpensive studio strobes. So, with all that info, my main question remains.......Is CLS really going to help me in a situation where I have to shoot hundreds of white background products and models? Or in a controlled studio environment, can I get by with manual flashes with zero experience? I am willing to put some time into learning and setting up, I just don't want to regret my purchase and not have the money to buy what I really need if I blow it on the wrong equipment. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Mach0 · Oct 23, 2013

CLS is nice and all but for what you're doing/ you can do it with triggers and speedlights.

Mystery · Oct 23, 2013

Mach0 said:
CLS is nice and all but for what you're doing/ you can do it with triggers and speedlights.

Ok, so my thought is...... I would like to have one Nikon light, or the sightly cheaper Nissin brand equivalent, like the di866 or di622. That would be my main flash. Then, it makes sense to just buy a couple $100 Yongnuo lights and use them as slaves, right?

KmH · Oct 23, 2013

Using animals and people you definitely need strobed light (flash)

Use Yongnuo radio triggers with a no flash unit on the camera, but with the radio transmitter on the camera hot shoe.
Yongnuo 4-Channel Wireless Remote Radio Slave Flash Trigger Receiver for Speedlight Flash Nikon Canon YN-04

You'll likely wind up with at least 3 flash units, with 1 dedicated to lighting the background to keep it white.

A key to good product photography is knowing when to subtract light using a black flat (black foam board works)

You can learn about product lighting fundamentals from this inexpensive book - Light Science and Magic: An Introduction to Photographic Lighting

Mystery · Oct 23, 2013

Right now I have a D40 and a D50, but no flashes. So, I've never learned much about CLS, that's why I was asking if it would be useful to me. My thought about getting one light like the SB700 or Nissin equivalent is that at least I will have one light that is CLS capable. My shooting table is 4'x4', and that light would be on a boom over the table, not really easily accessible. I was thinking of using the 2 off-brand lights as slaves for fill from the sides. Of course, I will likely move things around a lot, this is just my thoughts for now. Having the one light that I could control with commander from the camera means I can adjust via the camera without having to move the light and mess with my setup. The other two are more accessible since they are on regular stands on the ground. I would only need to adjust the power level and position on those to get them the way I want and I could use the Nikon flash to trigger them. No need for radio triggers since the D300S I am going to buy will have CLS commander, right?

Also, I believe the YN-565EX has an IR sensor and works with CLS as a slave. So technically, I think all 3 flashes can be triggered by the camera, right? Yongnuo says the 565EX has TTL capability with Nikon, but I really don't understand how the flash has TTL capability then is says it only works in manual mode. I get the feeling once I get them it will all make more sense.

Finally, the SB700 can sync with the camera via CLS for things like curtain sync, and I feel like I get more capability with that, even with the other 2 lights as slaves. But again, I am really not sure I understand how all this stuff works, so I think I will just order the lights and buy my camera and start fiddling with it. I will have 3 off-camera flashes as you suggested, and I might even add another 1 or 2 later to hit my white background with a little extra brightness if that seems to make sense once I get everything running.

Mach0 · Oct 24, 2013

Mystery said:
Right now I have a D40 and a D50, but no flashes. So, I've never learned much about CLS, that's why I was asking if it would be useful to me. My thought about getting one light like the SB700 or Nissin equivalent is that at least I will have one light that is CLS capable. My shooting table is 4'x4', and that light would be on a boom over the table, not really easily accessible. I was thinking of using the 2 off-brand lights as slaves for fill from the sides. Of course, I will likely move things around a lot, this is just my thoughts for now. Having the one light that I could control with commander from the camera means I can adjust via the camera without having to move the light and mess with my setup. The other two are more accessible since they are on regular stands on the ground. I would only need to adjust the power level and position on those to get them the way I want and I could use the Nikon flash to trigger them. No need for radio triggers since the D300S I am going to buy will have CLS commander, right? Also, I believe the YN-565EX has an IR sensor and works with CLS as a slave. So technically, I think all 3 flashes can be triggered by the camera, right? Yongnuo says the 565EX has TTL capability with Nikon, but I really don't understand how the flash has TTL capability then is says it only works in manual mode. I get the feeling once I get them it will all make more sense. Finally, the SB700 can sync with the camera via CLS for things like curtain sync, and I feel like I get more capability with that, even with the other 2 lights as slaves. But again, I am really not sure I understand how all this stuff works, so I think I will just order the lights and buy my camera and start fiddling with it. I will have 3 off-camera flashes as you suggested, and I might even add another 1 or 2 later to hit my white background with a little extra brightness if that seems to make sense once I get everything running.

You don't need CLS for studio shots. If you want to cough up more money then fine but you don't need it.

hirejn · Oct 28, 2013

Using Speedlights doesn't mean the camera makes decisions. You can use them remotely in manual mode using the camera's pop-up as a commander, and you can control power output from the camera menu. It's not as fast as PocketWizards but it works. You need reasonable line of sight. Manual flash requires understanding flash exposure, without which you're just guessing. An incident meter is helpful.

You just bought cheap lights that fell apart, and now you're thinking Yongnuo or Nissin is a better bet than Nikon? The lesson is teaching itself. It's wearing a red vest with flashing red lights waiving its arms in front of your face. I'll spell it out. Nikon would be a wise choice. What good did it do you to save money on the Cowboy lights that no longer work?

Derrel · Oct 28, 2013

I would bypass camera speedlights, and go right to lower-priced studio flash units, like the Adorama Flashpoint 320M monolights. These are basically $99 each. You will get built-in slave triggering on each unit. Connect ONE monolight to the camera's PC outlet with the supplied PC connection cord, and turn the slaves to ON on the other two monolights. Problem solved.

You can buy four Flashpoint 320M monolights, with lightstands and small softboxes, for about the price of one Nikon SB-900 speedlight.

amolitor · Oct 28, 2013

I think some people in this thread might be under the impression that CLS refers to continuous lighting, or something? I assume the OP means Nikon's Creative Lighting System, which is basically TTL flash, Nikon-style, if I understand it correctly.

Mystery · Oct 28, 2013

hirejn said:
Using Speedlights doesn't mean the camera makes decisions. You can use them remotely in manual mode using the camera's pop-up as a commander, and you can control power output from the camera menu. It's not as fast as PocketWizards but it works. You need reasonable line of sight. Manual flash requires understanding flash exposure, without which you're just guessing. An incident meter is helpful.

You just bought cheap lights that fell apart, and now you're thinking Yongnuo or Nissin is a better bet than Nikon? The lesson is teaching itself. It's wearing a red vest with flashing red lights waiving its arms in front of your face. I'll spell it out. Nikon would be a wise choice. What good did it do you to save money on the Cowboy lights that no longer work?

As a novice with this, I read this information on Nikon's website and get a different picture of what Nikon's proprietary CLS can do. I have come to find CLS is really not ideal for a controlled studio situation, so I plan to use the flashes in manual for these shoots now. However, I get the feeling you don't know much about CLS, in particular, so here's the info from: https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/9520/~/nikon-creative-lighting-system-(cls)

Features of the Creative Lighting System
i-TTL Balanced Fill-Flash

Monitor pre-flashes are emitted from a Speedlight before the main flash and reflected off every object in the frame. Monitor pre-flashes are picked up by either the five-segment TTL flash sensor or an RGB sensor. This information, along with data from the Matrix Metering System is analyzed to adjust flash output for the most balanced background/foreground exposure possible.

Advanced Wireless Lighting(wireless multiple flash)

Method of controlling multiple wireless flash units. The Master sends out a very small light pulse to provide the Remote and they communicate back subject exposure readings before the main exposure. Effective wireless range is 10m (33') and 30 ° left or right of the Master at longest distance, 60 ° at closer distances.

It is possible to separate i-TTL Speedlights into four groups comprised of the Master (SU-800, SB-800 can be used as a master to trigger remote units, SB-600 cannot be used as a master unit) and three Remote i-TTL Speedlight groups.

Using the Master unit's LCD you can set independent flash mode settings (TTL, Auto Aperture [Non-TTL Auto], Manual Repeating and Flash Cancel) and adjust flash output level compensation values independently for each group (A, B and C) and the Master unit (M).

There is no limit to the number of Speedlights contained in each group.

In Advanced Wireless Lighting, flash mode and other types of information are transmitted to each remote unit in the form of a series of low-level flashes from the Master unit. In TTL mode, the camera's exposure metering sensor detects Monitor pre-flashes to determine each flash unit's output level.

The ability to adjust the flash output level of every flash unit from the camera gives you the freedom to experiment with a variety of settings much faster and more simply than with conventional systems. For convenience in pre-shooting lighting confirmation, use the Modeling Flash function.

If you actually read the description, you will see the technology is more than just a remote flash. The Nissin and Yongnuo lights advertised as being CLS compatible. I have read a lot of reviews on both the lights I got and lots of people are satisfied with them. The Nissin actually has slightly better output than a SB-910, but not quite as wide of a focal range as a trade-off. I never said I thought the Nissin or Yongnuo would be better than Nikon, I said I was trying to find something that would fit my budget better.

As far as I can tell, Cowboy Studio is junk. I just got the Nissin Di866 and a couple Yongnuo YN-565EX's. The Nissin light I got actually seems pretty well built. The Yongnuos are certainly a cheaper build and cheaper product, but still better than Cowboy. I am fine using them manually now that I have played with them a bit, and I am able to adjust EV compensation from the camera on all 3 lights remotely which is really nice. Not really sure about how well the CLS aspect is working with these lights, so I have started another more specific discussion on that with these lights in another thread.

Derrel said:
I would bypass camera speedlights, and go right to lower-priced studio flash units, like the Adorama Flashpoint 320M monolights. These are basically $99 each. You will get built-in slave triggering on each unit. Connect ONE monolight to the camera's PC outlet with the supplied PC connection cord, and turn the slaves to ON on the other two monolights. Problem solved.

You can buy four Flashpoint 320M monolights, with lightstands and small softboxes, for about the price of one Nikon SB-900 speedlight.

I really like having the speedlites for their versatility. We shoot a lot of animals, so I thought it would be nice to be able to set up a speedlite with an umbrella for location shoots without needing power, etc. The studio strobes you shared actually look like they would work out really well for me, though, and I suppose I could always get battery packs for them if we need to go out of the studio.....but that does mean more money I don't really have right now. I can always add later. Thanks for pointing out a reasonably priced option for something that might work perfectly for me. I just barely got the 3 speedlites this weekend, and I have some time to decide if I want to return them if they don't work as I hoped them to. So, those Flashpoints might be a good option if this flops. I am still tinkering, so I'll post back how things go after I have some time to test this week.