Completely lost

Discussion in 'Mirrorless Cameras' started by soufiej, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. The_Traveler

    The_Traveler Completely Counter-dependent Supporting Member

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    Yesterday was the first meeting of a workshop on creativity that has attracted a bunch of proficient amateurs from the area. We spent the first hour showing our own small portfolio and telling about our goals; typical get-to-know-each-other stuff.
    Out of the nine people (one was a working commercial photographer), three had already switched from full frame conventional dslrs to Sony A7 and two more were interested enough to come over and ask questions primarily about lenses and adapters..

    This group might be probably atypical because the interest in photography by each individual was considerable.


     
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  2. byegad

    byegad TPF Noob!

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    Taken with an Olympus OMD EM10 and 75-300mm lens in a wood with less than perfect light. This combination of lens and camera is the heaviest I own and I can carry it around all day on a wrist strap. The equivalent DSLR would be a Full Frame DSLR plus 150-600mm lens or a cropped sensor DSLR with a 100-400 lens and I defy you to carry either of those all day on a wrist strap.

    Z0004581.JPG
     
  3. soufiej

    soufiej No longer a newbie, moving up!

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    Without any brand bashing or promotion in mind, I was looking at a Canon SL1 yesterday. It seems to have the small size and light weight along with useful features ( an optical viewfinder, for example) that I didn't see in mirrorless systems from other brands at similar prices. In fact, just browsing the available cameras at a Best Buy where I needed a new wireless mouse, the SL1 looked to be selling for a good bit less money than their mirrorless offerings. The SL1 looks to get good reviews while, at times, I feel as though the mirrorless cameras get good reviews as much because they are a new category (which appeals strictly because it's not an old category) as for their image quality.

    Is the SL1 still fairly unique in DSLR's when it comes to size and weight combined with image quality and "old fashioned" (read: familiar) feature sets? Have other manufacturer's been trying to compete with Canon in this category? Or, are the Sony's Olymous, Fuji, etc, hanging their hat on mirrorless and hoping to steal a part of the market with the idea "we ain't your grandfather's DSLR"? In a way, mirrorless seems to be the camera market's equivalent to DLP rear screen projection televisions and early class D audio amplifiers. Both the DLP and chip based technologies offered good performance (with, however, some serious drawbacks) but ultimately couldn't knock off the alternatives; LED and second generation plasma televisions and "traditional" class AB amplifiers - even vacuum tube designs.
     
  4. cmorinweb

    cmorinweb TPF Noob!

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    In my opinion you should really go in a specializes camera store to get good advice and also be able to try both technologies. Places like Best Buy or Futureshop are good when you exactly know what you want, especially for cameras.

    A friend of mine who is a dentist just started in photography. He was mind blown when he tried my a6000 because of the image quality it produces with that form factor and price range.

    Then the guy at Best buy was a Canon fanboy, saying that he must have the SL1 because of the lens variety and image quality. My friend needed a 100mm macro lents for taking pictures at work. The thing is that with mirrorless systems you can use any lens from Canon or Nikon. All you need is a little cheap adapter.

    I'm not saying that the Canon SL1 is not good, don't get me wrong. It is a great camera, but to me, mirrorless is more versatile and practical from a consumer perspective. Professionals are still a lot glued to DSLR though, which is totally correct. Pros like Gary Fong are more and more migrating to mirrorless, so that's a good sign that mirrorless technology is great and has a lot of potential.

    My two cents
    10 years of DSLR usage as a hobbyist, and now happily converted to mirrorless.
     
  5. soufiej

    soufiej No longer a newbie, moving up!

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    I'm shopping so I've been to several stores. The "fanboy" is not limited to a big box. I've mentioned before that I worked in sales for 30 years and I've seen my share of lazy salespeople in all fields. They are found in big box chains and in the single location shops. And with a product as complex as a modern day camera, many salespeople know the systems they work with fairly well and not so much those they don't use daily. So knowledge base and available inventory is a double edged sword in most cases. So far, none of the independents I've contacted have a particular camera I'm considering in stock (and, to be fair, the model is being replaced so they have just sold out in some cases.) I spent my sales career in small, local, independent shops so I'm very familiar with the trade offs of that type of retailer vs a big box. I even interviewed for a job at one time at a small, family owned camera shop. I'd been a client there for several years and the owner and I both agreed I probably couldn't - or wouldn't want to - live on the salary he was able to pay. I could have made more money at one of the chains but wasn't willing to work for one.

    The Sony mirrorless was mentioned in this thread the other day so I thought I'd take a look. While I was at BB buying the mouse, I wandered through the mostly decimated after Xmas and before inventory camera department. That's were I spotted the SL1.
     
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  6. cmorinweb

    cmorinweb TPF Noob!

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    This is a really good camera that's for sure. My friend is very happy with his purchase.

    It's a win win situation in my opinion!
     
  7. The_Traveler

    The_Traveler Completely Counter-dependent Supporting Member

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    Not knowing where you live, I can say that Adorama and b&w photo in NYC will have everything, every model, all the info and terrific prices.
     
  8. Bebulamar

    Bebulamar No longer a newbie, moving up!

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    I don't like the mirrorless and won't buy one but I think they do sell well and that is a very good reason for manufacturers to make them. They do have advantages over the DSLR so really can the OP tell me why not? Of the 47 models may be they should not make most of the first 38.
     
  9. DaveEP

    DaveEP TPF Noob!

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    There's generally five main reasons people don't buy mirrorless cameras:

    1) They shoot (or dream one day they may shoot) sports or BIF and the AF on DLSRs may be more suitable at this time. For everything else the AF is pretty much on par and often more flexible and accurate on mirroless than DSLR.

    2) Ultra high ISO - which the vast majority of DSLR owners never really need, they are just too lazy to learn lighting like we used to use with film. Even then it's hard to knock Sony's prowess here, especially the A7s.

    3) They mistakenly think there isn't the range of lenses available for mirrorless. While it's true that Sony are still coming up to speed on the lens range (especially fast lenses) they are getting there. All the mirrorless cameras also have the advantage of being able to use their own native lenses plus all the DSLRs lenses (using adapters), so in fact even more than any DSLRs you care to mention can use. Fuji have a reasonable range and between Olympus and Panasonic the Micro-Four-Thirds range is pretty well fleshed out from wide angle (7mm) to telephoto (600mm equivalent f5.6) and fast primes too (f0.95, f1.2, f1.4 etc etc). So, lenses should not be the primary reason, in fact they are smaller, lighter, cheaper and often sharper than their DSLR equivalents.

    4) They prefer OVF to EVF. I have no problem with this as a personal preference. I've used both extensively over the years. I don't think the OVF in current DLSRs is as good as it was on film cameras back in the 80s, which were bigger and brighter, and while they all have some pretty nice info features, like shutter, aperture, ISO, focus conformation etc, the EVF gives you that little bit of extra information, like live histograms, horizon overlays, a true view of what the image will look like in both exposure and white balance before you take the shot. OVF can't do any of that, but that's OK because it's a personal preference. Many people are against EVFs because they tried one they didn't like and assume they are all the same, or they are parroting things they've read somewhere on the internet.

    5) This is an emotional one for some people, because a lot of amateurs think carrying around a big DSLR makes them look professional (what ever they perceive a professional to be), which is ironic as so many professionals are transitioning to mirrorless because they want smaller, lighter less obvious gear.

    There are other reasons of course. Battery life is often sighted as a cause, though it's never been a problem for me. Flash systems could be another, though again the vast majority of people see flash as a black art and never quite get the hang of it. Brand loyalty is another and that's a tough one to over come for some people. I'm quite sure that if Canon launched the 5D4 as a DSLR and had the same capabilities in a 5DM mirrorless but in a smaller lighter body (with EF adapter) many Canon fans would flock to it. The same for Nikon and the D900.

    When you think about how many photos are only ever seen on a screen, via the internet, phone or tablet, how large (or not) people actually print nowadays, do the vast majority of people actually need more than 16MP? If that's the case won't 36MP (A7r) do? For those that can 'manage' with 12MP-16MP the world of mirroless can be a very liberating place.
     
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  10. soufiej

    soufiej No longer a newbie, moving up!

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    "Why not"? I don't understand your question.


    Some manufacturers obviously don't make 47 models. However, just as with most technology, what goes in the top o'the line unit this year will eventually work its way into the lower models as higher production numbers make reduced cost possible. Should Ford only make a F-150 pick up? It's their most popular model and the most popular vehicle sold in the US for the last umpteen years. Just do a truck and forget the market for a small economical car like the Focus? Personally, I don't care that much for the Focus but it sells well and it fits a niche.

    I mentioned this in another thread but when I sold high end audio we always had several lines which were "giant killers". They dispensed with the BS features and sold on the basis of their musical performance. I see nothing like that in photography. Every line it seems is out to keep up with the mass market designers in the way of features offered. WiFi in a camera? I see absolutely no purpose for that feature. That doesn't mean a manufacturer shouldn't include it.
     
  11. Bebulamar

    Bebulamar No longer a newbie, moving up!

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    The question is that if the OP can tell me why manufacturers should not make the mirrorless cameras? 47 models is too many but they can cut down many models in the line up and still offer good number of mirrorless cameras.
    You do have the Leica M60 with very few features but I guess most people won't pay for that. Less features cost more. As a more moderate attempt Nikon made the Df which has fewer features than the D610 and D750 but cost significantly more. The cost of such cameras is not only the manufacturing cost but since they can only sell fewer cameras they had to raise the price.
     
  12. soufiej

    soufiej No longer a newbie, moving up!

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    I never suggested manufacturers shouldn't make these cameras.

    I said I didn't understand why they do.
     

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