Crop Or Full Frame?

[Benji Molotov]

I picked up photography about a year and half ago. I started out on a cheap used Canon 30D and an 18-55 4.5-5.6 kit lens and absolutely fell in love with the hobby.

Pretty soon though it became apparent that if I wanted to create the type of quality pictures I was imitating I needed to invest in something a bit better gear wise. So I purchased a Canon EOS Rebel SL1, an upgraded IS 18-55 kit lense and a 55-250 4.5-5.6 lens, a nifty fifty and a pancake F2.8 40mm. And I was in love all over again with the speed of the autofocus, the massive jump in image quality and crop ability. And I absolutely do enjoy the lite weight camera body and the functionality it gives me with photography.

But, because there has to be a but, I feel like I've outgrown the kit lenses. It's time for me to pop my "L" lens cherry.

Now here's my real dilemma. If I'm going to shell out the cash for a 24-105 F4 L IS USM, a 70-200 F4 L IS USM, and a Sigma 50 F1.4 EX DG HSM....is it worth it to put them on a 1.6 crop factor DSLR?

I know it would be an improvement with good optics but it would still be pretty tight with that crop factor.

That being said while I can justify spending that much on the lenses I don't know if I can justify another thousand plus dollars for a professional camera like a used 5D Mark ii to use as a hobby.

My other option is a used 5D, but would that be a step back from the SL1 in image quality because of the older model?

This is the cross roads I'm stuck at right now.

I would love some opinions about the situation from someone who may have found themselves at a similar crossroads.


Cheers!
Benji Molotov

 

[Alexr25]

jump in image quality and crap ability

I really must find a camera with good "crap ability" to match the majority of my photographic output!

As to you your question about upgrading lenses to improve image quality, unless you are producing poster size prints or making enlargements from small portions of the image I seriously doubt that you will see any noticeable difference in image quality. If anything there will be a greater improvement with a crop body than on a full frame since the pixel density is higher in the crop sensor.

 

[Overread16 4]

There is no concept at all that "pro" L series lenses on a crop sensor body is a bad thing. It is only ever a "bad" thing to some photographers because they come from a fullframe/35mm film background and thus want to have the same angle of view for their lenses that they had before. It is, in todays market a non-issue (as you can get second hand fullframe bodies for as much if not less than entry level crop sensor bodies) and was more an issue in the past when fullframe was more expensive.

That said you've spoken a lot about gear but not really about what you want the gear to do. So what do you photograph; how do you go about it; what do you feel are the weakneses in your setup that you want to overcome. Fullframe has its place as does crop sensor and it might be that you're doing shots; working in locations and going for creativity that would benefit a larger sensor or not. Until you put your criteria on the table we can't say.

 

[Benji Molotov]

jump in image quality and crap ability

I really must find a camera with good "crap ability" to match the majority of my photographic output!

As to you your question about upgrading lenses to improve image quality, unless you are producing poster size prints or making enlargements from small portions of the image I seriously doubt that you will see any noticeable difference in image quality. If anything there will be a greater improvement with a crop body than on a full frame since the pixel density is higher in the crop sensor.

HAHA yeah I caught that typo after posting and then couldn't find an edit function to fix it.

Thank you for the feed back. I'm still very much learning and wanting to improve.

 

[Benji Molotov]

There is no concept at all that "pro" L series lenses on a crop sensor body is a bad thing. It is only ever a "bad" thing to some photographers because they come from a fullframe/35mm film background and thus want to have the same angle of view for their lenses that they had before. It is, in todays market a non-issue (as you can get second hand fullframe bodies for as much if not less than entry level crop sensor bodies) and was more an issue in the past when fullframe was more expensive.

That said you've spoken a lot about gear but not really about what you want the gear to do. So what do you photograph; how do you go about it; what do you feel are the weakneses in your setup that you want to overcome. Fullframe has its place as does crop sensor and it might be that you're doing shots; working in locations and going for creativity that would benefit a larger sensor or not. Until you put your criteria on the table we can't say.

Good point.

I'm finding myself drawn to nature photography and street photography.

Now for the nature photography I do I usually frequent a nature reserve and a botanical garden that are near to me. And to be honest for the flower shots I take the gear I have is most certainly sufficient.

However when it comes to wildlife at the nature reserve the auto focus just seems to constantly be just a tick to slow to get the shot. I.E. I can get the bird in the frame and close enough but it just isn't sharp.

And when it comes to street photography I feel like I can't hit that perfect frame size. The nifty fifty isn't as good for street shots when its really a nifty eighty. It feels to tight and as it often forces me to crop out elements that give key context to images I want for street photography. So I end up using the 18-55 4.5-5.6 IS STM kit lens. Which in turn means I'm stuck with a smaller aperture and have to use a higher ISO or a slower shutter speed depending on lighting conditions. And being that I live in Michigan nine months out of the year the sky is a dull cloudy grey winter color. Which means dimmer light. Not to mention the 18-55mm has its own framing issues. Whats to much? Whats to little? I often miss that decisive moment trying to frame the shot just right.

Now I know that last part is mainly my own indecisiveness but I feel like I might have some better luck if I could get a feel for a true 50mm focal length with practice.

Aside from that I also take my camera of vacations and trips. I usually pick a big zoo to go to every summer. Last summer I took my SL1 to the Toledo zoo and very quickly figured out that the kit lenses I had were going to be hard to use in the indoor displays. Cranking the ISO up and shooting at the largest aperture possible yielded some decent shots but more than one had a good bit of digital noise.

These are the main problems I've been having and I know that its more than just a gear problem, that I have much to learn as well. But I feel like the first step may be investing in some quality lenses and a full frame camera.

 

[waday]

There is no concept at all that "pro" L series lenses on a crop sensor body is a bad thing. It is only ever a "bad" thing to some photographers because they come from a fullframe/35mm film background and thus want to have the same angle of view for their lenses that they had before. It is, in todays market a non-issue (as you can get second hand fullframe bodies for as much if not less than entry level crop sensor bodies) and was more an issue in the past when fullframe was more expensive.

That said you've spoken a lot about gear but not really about what you want the gear to do. So what do you photograph; how do you go about it; what do you feel are the weakneses in your setup that you want to overcome. Fullframe has its place as does crop sensor and it might be that you're doing shots; working in locations and going for creativity that would benefit a larger sensor or not. Until you put your criteria on the table we can't say.

Good point.

I'm finding myself drawn to nature photography and street photography.

Now for the nature photography I do I usually frequent a nature reserve and a botanical garden that are near to me. And to be honest for the flower shots I take the gear I have is most certainly sufficient.

However when it comes to wildlife at the nature reserve the auto focus just seems to constantly be just a tick to slow to get the shot. I.E. I can get the bird in the frame and close enough but it just isn't sharp.

And when it comes to street photography I feel like I can't hit that perfect frame size. The nifty fifty isn't as good for street shots when its really a nifty eighty. It feels to tight and as it often forces me to crop out elements that give key context to images I want for street photography. So I end up using the 18-55 4.5-5.6 IS STM kit lens. Which in turn means I'm stuck with a smaller aperture and have to use a higher ISO or a slower shutter speed depending on lighting conditions. And being that I live in Michigan nine months out of the year the sky is a dull cloudy grey winter color. Which means dimmer light. Not to mention the 18-55mm has its own framing issues. Whats to much? Whats to little? I often miss that decisive moment trying to frame the shot just right.

Now I know that last part is mainly my own indecisiveness but I feel like I might have some better luck if I could get a feel for a true 50mm focal length with practice.

Aside from that I also take my camera of vacations and trips. I usually pick a big zoo to go to every summer. Last summer I took my SL1 to the Toledo zoo and very quickly figured out that the kit lenses I had were going to be hard to use in the indoor displays. Cranking the ISO up and shooting at the largest aperture possible yielded some decent shots but more than one had a good bit of digital noise.

These are the main problems I've been having and I know that its more than just a gear problem, that I have much to learn as well. But I feel like the first step may be investing in some quality lenses and a full frame camera.

The first step is learning, the second is, well, learning. After a few more of the same steps, it's investing in equipment.

Post some of your shots, and we may be able to help you determine if it's a gear problem or a technique problem.

From the gear side of it, there are others that will chime in, but it sounds like you want the speed of the new 7D Mkii, not a full frame.

Also, I'm not a street photographer, but walking around with a honking full frame camera might not be the best thing, as people will notice you more.

Again, others will chime in to provide more help.

 

[shefjr]

To answer your question in your first post, I would always upgrade my lenses before the body. Is there a need to buy a new body with the lenses? IMO, no. I'm not a canon shooter so I don't know quite where the lenses fall but, if it were me I would take the extra change that I was gonna put into a full frame and instead buy f2.8 lenses instead of the f4. You seem to have a propensity to countinually want to upgrade so, maybe you should just go all the way with the lenses. Once you have all the lenses you want then buy the full frame camera.
Of course this is just my opinion and also what I did. It worked well for me.

Edit,
After reading further down, it sounds to me like a upgrade in glass would help with some of the issues. f2.8 glass would be my suggestion.

 

[Benji Molotov]

There is no concept at all that "pro" L series lenses on a crop sensor body is a bad thing. It is only ever a "bad" thing to some photographers because they come from a fullframe/35mm film background and thus want to have the same angle of view for their lenses that they had before. It is, in todays market a non-issue (as you can get second hand fullframe bodies for as much if not less than entry level crop sensor bodies) and was more an issue in the past when fullframe was more expensive.

That said you've spoken a lot about gear but not really about what you want the gear to do. So what do you photograph; how do you go about it; what do you feel are the weakneses in your setup that you want to overcome. Fullframe has its place as does crop sensor and it might be that you're doing shots; working in locations and going for creativity that would benefit a larger sensor or not. Until you put your criteria on the table we can't say.

Good point.

I'm finding myself drawn to nature photography and street photography.

Now for the nature photography I do I usually frequent a nature reserve and a botanical garden that are near to me. And to be honest for the flower shots I take the gear I have is most certainly sufficient.

However when it comes to wildlife at the nature reserve the auto focus just seems to constantly be just a tick to slow to get the shot. I.E. I can get the bird in the frame and close enough but it just isn't sharp.

And when it comes to street photography I feel like I can't hit that perfect frame size. The nifty fifty isn't as good for street shots when its really a nifty eighty. It feels to tight and as it often forces me to crop out elements that give key context to images I want for street photography. So I end up using the 18-55 4.5-5.6 IS STM kit lens. Which in turn means I'm stuck with a smaller aperture and have to use a higher ISO or a slower shutter speed depending on lighting conditions. And being that I live in Michigan nine months out of the year the sky is a dull cloudy grey winter color. Which means dimmer light. Not to mention the 18-55mm has its own framing issues. Whats to much? Whats to little? I often miss that decisive moment trying to frame the shot just right.

Now I know that last part is mainly my own indecisiveness but I feel like I might have some better luck if I could get a feel for a true 50mm focal length with practice.

Aside from that I also take my camera of vacations and trips. I usually pick a big zoo to go to every summer. Last summer I took my SL1 to the Toledo zoo and very quickly figured out that the kit lenses I had were going to be hard to use in the indoor displays. Cranking the ISO up and shooting at the largest aperture possible yielded some decent shots but more than one had a good bit of digital noise.

These are the main problems I've been having and I know that its more than just a gear problem, that I have much to learn as well. But I feel like the first step may be investing in some quality lenses and a full frame camera.

The first step is learning, the second is, well, learning. After a few more of the same steps, it's investing in equipment.

Post some of your shots, and we may be able to help you determine if it's a gear problem or a technique problem.

From the gear side of it, there are others that will chime in, but it sounds like you want the speed of the new 7D Mkii, not a full frame.

Also, I'm not a street photographer, but walking around with a honking full frame camera might not be the best thing, as people will notice you more.

Again, others will chime in to provide more help.

Fair points, but I thought that much of the auto focus speed wasn't necessarily the camera body but also was the lenses AF function.

As for my shots. Let me show you what I'm talking about.

Here's some samples of shots from the botanical garden.

Ghostly Reflections Flickr - Photo Sharing < A shot I'm pretty proud of and really was just a lucky find.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126371930@N04/14970855193/ < Again, pretty happy with this shot. I like the shallow depth a field and sharpness of the subject being isolated.

But then there are shots like this https://www.flickr.com/photos/126371930@N04/15044212506/ where I was at an indoor Toledo zoo exhibit where I had to turn ISO up and use a slow shutter speed to deal with the small aperture on the 15-55 and there a slight shake and a bit of noise creeping in. I consider it to be a decent pic but it could have been better.

Course then right after that he showed me that beautiful blue back of his and I manage to get a pretty good shot of it. IMG 1058 Flickr - Photo Sharing

Then here it just doesn't feel right. https://www.flickr.com/photos/126371930@N0/16220592238/ Trying to shoot at high shutter speeds and lower ISO with the aperture of the 55-250 means an image that is soft.

Same for these couple. IMG 0987 Flickr - Photo Sharing

IMG 0971 Flickr - Photo Sharing

Crane Flickr - Photo Sharing

Now I know the lower the aperture often the softer the image but it seems to me that if I want to be able to get that shutter speed at lower ISO's I need something with a larger aperture to let in light.

Perhaps the better optics of the higher quality lenses can make up the differences?

 

[Benji Molotov]

To answer your question in your first post, I would always upgrade my lenses before the body. Is there a need to buy a new body with the lenses? IMO, no. I'm not a canon shooter so I don't know quite where the lenses fall but, if it were me I would take the extra change that I was gonna put into a full frame and instead buy f2.8 lenses instead of the f4. You seem to have a propensity to countinually want to upgrade so, maybe you should just go all the way with the lenses. Once you have all the lenses you want then buy the full frame camera.
Of course this is just my opinion and also what I did. It worked well for me.

Edit,
After reading further down, it sounds to me like a upgrade in glass would help with some of the issues. f2.8 glass would be my suggestion.

Well see that's the thing. You're right. I thought about that. But being that I'm only doing it as a hobby..that's way more than I can spend. And to be honest I'm starting to thing that I'm jumping the gun here and should learn far more before making a purchase like this.

Perhaps there is a better third option. A canon 35mm F2 that will give me a focal length that's pretty close to an actual 50mm to use for street photography. And take some more time to hone my skills with wildlife photography.

 

[Overread16 4]

A few thoughts:

1) It used to be if you did action/sports/wildlife you went with crop sensor and if you wanted portraits/street/weddings/studio you went with fullframe. These days its not as clear cut since there are fullframe bodes which have fantastic AF and you can crop significantly on them so that the frame difference isn't an issue (eg the 5DMIII). However they are still on the expensive side; so considering your interests I think a crop sensor camera coupled with a good wider lens - like a 30-40mm type range might be what would suit you best.

2) Lens/light before bodies is typically the maxim of upgrading. That is not saying bodies are not important; just that you tend to get less gain for your money compared to better glass and better lighting. That said this rule changes if you want to change format size. If you want to go fullframe do it now and build your kit around that. No sense building a kit for one format and then changing it all over later. That said nothing says you can't do both in time - a 5D second hand might be all you need to cover your interest in street photography.

3) Your photography looks good and I'd say an upgrade in gear is going to help. Skill is one thing but tools are another - weaker tools make a job harder and exert more constraint - whilst better ones are easier and oft release more potential.

4) On the lens front I'd consider what you really love doing and get maybe one really good lens to do that now and expand your lens line-up as you go. You could sink your budget into a 400mm f5.6 L and that would give you a serious boost to your wildlife photography; yes its still f5.6 but it gives you that 400mm reach and honestly you're not going to get that at a wider aperture until you're spending some really serious money (a 300mm f2.8 with 1.4 teleconverter; a 400mm f2.8; a sigma 120-300mm f2.8 with teleconverter etc...). It gives you reach and that makes things a whole lot easier as it seems you're getting decently close to many birds.

b) Or you could focus on your botanical interests and invest into macro gear; a 90mm macro prime or longer and a flash (speedlite) and a small diffuser (lumiquest softbox) and you could be away.

c) You might also consider a 70-200mm f2.8 lens; it would suit you very nicely with your interests in flowers, lizards etc.... and its a very versatile lens range (indeed its one of those lenses that nearly anyone can make a use of and get good results). There's a range of first and 3rd party options and if you really splash out the Canon 70-200mm f2.8 IS L MII can take up to a 2*TC to give you a 400mm f5.6 lens (it won't be as good as the other options mentioned above; and you will want to close it down to around f7.1 to claw back the sharpness lost; but its still a very useable setup in good light).



There is a wealth of choice so in part a big bit of that choice has to be made by yourself. Look at what you want; then make sure you research what fits and what exceeds your budget. Sometimes its worth doing that as you might find that if you save for a little bit longer you can get something that really is a huge step forward.

 

[bribrius]

I picked up photography about a year and half ago. I started out on a cheap used Canon 30D and an 18-55 4.5-5.6 kit lens and absolutely fell in love with the hobby.

Pretty soon though it became apparent that if I wanted to create the type of quality pictures I was imitating I needed to invest in something a bit better gear wise. So I purchased a Canon EOS Rebel SL1, an upgraded IS 18-55 kit lense and a 55-250 4.5-5.6 lens, a nifty fifty and a pancake F2.8 40mm. And I was in love all over again with the speed of the autofocus, the massive jump in image quality and crap ability. And I absolutely do enjoy the lite weight camera body and the functionality it gives me with photography.

But, because there has to be a but, I feel like I've outgrown the kit lenses. It's time for me to pop my "L" lens cherry.

Now here's my real dilemma. If I'm going to shell out the cash for a 24-105 F4 L IS USM, a 70-200 F4 L IS USM, and a Sigma 50 F1.4 EX DG HSM....is it worth it to put them on a 1.6 crop factor DSLR?

I know it would be an improvement with good optics but it would still be pretty tight with that crop factor.

That being said while I can justify spending that much on the lenses I don't know if I can justify another thousand plus dollars for a professional camera like a used 5D Mark ii to use as a hobby.

My other option is a used 5D, but would that be a step back from the SL1 in image quality because of the older model?

This is the cross roads I'm stuck at right now.

I would love some opinions about the situation from someone who may have found themselves at a similar crossroads.


Cheers!
Benji Molotov

where i am at. Few grand later........ I can't justify another few grand for the sake of a hobby taking photos of flowers or birds or anything. At some point it becomes a waste of money i can have almost as much fun walking around with a fifty dollar point and shoot. I move up again i will be charging, someone, somehow. Start moving to higher end pro equipment you might as well go pro and makes sure you have the skill set to go with it. If you want to spend ten k on taking photos of flowers you may as well just go buy a boat.

 

[Overread16 4]

Some people drink and socialise and spend their money there
Some smoke and spend a little every now and then a week on that
Some drive fancy cars
Some have boats
Some have horses
Some have book collections
Some collect beanie babies.

Doesn't really matter what; so long as you can afford it and so long as your purchase will not leave dependants upon you suffering as a result of your purchase then go for it! You only live once so enjoy the time you have; money won't come with you into the afterlife.

So who cares if the manufacturers call it "pro series"; that's just a label and in all honesty a good photographer will take "pro" quality shots with any entry level DSRL on the market today. They will, of course, have more potential to take better shots on a higher level body and that's the same for amateurs as well.

So if you want it - can afford it and won't leave others suffering - go for it Don't worry about earning back - the earning back is what you achieve not what lines your pocket.

 

[bribrius]

Some people drink and socialise and spend their money there
Some smoke and spend a little every now and then a week on that
Some drive fancy cars
Some have boats
Some have horses
Some have book collections
Some collect beanie babies.

Doesn't really matter what; so long as you can afford it and so long as your purchase will not leave dependants upon you suffering as a result of your purchase then go for it! You only live once so enjoy the time you have; money won't come with you into the afterlife.

So who cares if the manufacturers call it "pro series"; that's just a label and in all honesty a good photographer will take "pro" quality shots with any entry level DSRL on the market today. They will, of course, have more potential to take better shots on a higher level body and that's the same for amateurs as well.

So if you want it - can afford it and won't leave others suffering - go for it Don't worry about earning back - the earning back is what you achieve not what lines your pocket.

because the difference in photo quality and enjoyment isn't worth the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to me unless someone else is paying for it... If i bought a fifty thousand dollar boat you can damn well bet i would be chartering it.
Despite how much i love the ocean.

 

[Benji Molotov]

A few thoughts:

1) It used to be if you did action/sports/wildlife you went with crop sensor and if you wanted portraits/street/weddings/studio you went with fullframe. These days its not as clear cut since there are fullframe bodes which have fantastic AF and you can crop significantly on them so that the frame difference isn't an issue (eg the 5DMIII). However they are still on the expensive side; so considering your interests I think a crop sensor camera coupled with a good wider lens - like a 30-40mm type range might be what would suit you best.

2) Lens/light before bodies is typically the maxim of upgrading. That is not saying bodies are not important; just that you tend to get less gain for your money compared to better glass and better lighting. That said this rule changes if you want to change format size. If you want to go fullframe do it now and build your kit around that. No sense building a kit for one format and then changing it all over later. That said nothing says you can't do both in time - a 5D second hand might be all you need to cover your interest in street photography.

3) Your photography looks good and I'd say an upgrade in gear is going to help. Skill is one thing but tools are another - weaker tools make a job harder and exert more constraint - whilst better ones are easier and oft release more potential.

4) On the lens front I'd consider what you really love doing and get maybe one really good lens to do that now and expand your lens line-up as you go. You could sink your budget into a 400mm f5.6 L and that would give you a serious boost to your wildlife photography; yes its still f5.6 but it gives you that 400mm reach and honestly you're not going to get that at a wider aperture until you're spending some really serious money (a 300mm f2.8 with 1.4 teleconverter; a 400mm f2.8; a sigma 120-300mm f2.8 with teleconverter etc...). It gives you reach and that makes things a whole lot easier as it seems you're getting decently close to many birds.

b) Or you could focus on your botanical interests and invest into macro gear; a 90mm macro prime or longer and a flash (speedlite) and a small diffuser (lumiquest softbox) and you could be away.

c) You might also consider a 70-200mm f2.8 lens; it would suit you very nicely with your interests in flowers, lizards etc.... and its a very versatile lens range (indeed its one of those lenses that nearly anyone can make a use of and get good results). There's a range of first and 3rd party options and if you really splash out the Canon 70-200mm f2.8 IS L MII can take up to a 2*TC to give you a 400mm f5.6 lens (it won't be as good as the other options mentioned above; and you will want to close it down to around f7.1 to claw back the sharpness lost; but its still a very useable setup in good light).



There is a wealth of choice so in part a big bit of that choice has to be made by yourself. Look at what you want; then make sure you research what fits and what exceeds your budget. Sometimes its worth doing that as you might find that if you save for a little bit longer you can get something that really is a huge step forward.

What I'm thinking may be a good middle ground is taking a bit of both worlds.

A second hand 70-200 F2.8 IS L USM and a sigma 30mm F1.4. I would get the larger aperture for for the 70-200 which I would use more as I frequent the botanical garden much more. And I would have a lens that works out to be just a bit wider than a 50mm on my crop sensor camera.

Seems the best way to split the difference and more economical than shelling out nearly four grand for the original alternatives I had in mind.

 

[sashbar]

And I was in love all over again with the speed of the autofocus, the massive jump in image quality and crap ability.

How true...