Dark Subject on White Background

Mystery · Sep 13, 2014

I am a beginner photographer, but very determined to learn how to better shoot on white background. Slowly but surely, I am improving, but I shoot so rarely that I feel like I'm starting over every time I pick up the camera. Over the past couple years, my photos are definitely improving, but I still get stumped by dark subjects. Currently, I am running into an issue shooting a black rope on white background. No matter what I do, the rope tends to be blown out. I am shooting through plate glass with the subject about 6 feet in front of the background. My background is seamless paper with a Yongnuo 565EX set at the minimum power to achieve true white. My subject is lit with a SB-900 and a SB-700, reflecting in umbrellas and placed about as close as they can get; one about level and the other from slightly above.

Here is a photo of my setup and a sample image of the rope. This glass tabletop and speedlight setup is new for me and I am wondering what I can try to get some better results. I have a lot of photos to shoot similar to this so I want to limit my post work as much as possible. My main concern is the back top of the rope. It just looks way overexposed and blown out. No matter what I do, I am not able to get the definition of the braids without that blown out look around the edges. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

tirediron · Sep 13, 2014

Bring in a third light from the top to even out the exposure, and then drop the overall exposure. Also, buy the lighting bible.

Mystery · Sep 13, 2014

I boomed a third light over the top. Initially, I put it directly over the subject, but it caused some tiny shadows from the individual fibers of the rope that made it look out of focus. I moved the light toward the camera a little bit and got this shot. I need to tweak it a little bit, but I think the third light really helped.

For your recommendation of the book, are you talking about The Studio Photographer's Lighting Bible by Calvey Taylor-Haw? I will grab a copy, I need something more than the internet to get my information from, so thanks for the recommendation.

What do you think of the improvement in the shot? I would still like to see a little more definition on the front of the rope so I will see if I can bump up the low front light a little bit more.

tirediron · Sep 13, 2014

It's getting there; I'd also move the lights in a lot closer; the closer, the softer.

Mystery · Sep 13, 2014

I was initially shooting through the umbrellas and that got them much closer. I thought it looked a little better bouncing instead of shooting through, but maybe it will look better now that I have the third light. What do you think about shooting through or bouncing with the umbrellas in this situation? With the types of stands and brackets I am using, I really can't get the lights much closer. I can bring the boom lower, but the original two lights on the stands won't bet any closer. I could possibly try taking the light off the stand and just lay it on the table, shown in the second shot here. Not sure it will be very secure there, but it's closer.

Derrel · Sep 13, 2014

I think the white is still blown out, detail-less 255, and the rope is under-lighted and under-exposed. I think you need to LESSEN the amount of light on the background significantly, and get more top light onto the rope. The rope needs about another 1/2 stop of exposure, maybe 7/10 more. The background is over-lit.

Mystery · Sep 14, 2014

Derrel said:
I think the white is still blown out, detail-less 255, and the rope is under-lighted and under-exposed. I think you need to LESSEN the amount of light on the background significantly, and get more top light onto the rope. The rope needs about another 1/2 stop of exposure, maybe 7/10 more. The background is over-lit.

The background for this shot needs to be white. I'm not sure how to have 255 white without it being detail-less. I wouldn't mind having a bit of a shadow under the product, but shooting on glass makes that kind of impossible. I suppose I could get a little reflection, but not with the high key AND a glass surface. I have a sheet of white lexan here I was shooting on before. It allows for some really nice shadows when I don't have it backlit, but I always end up with the same blown out subject I had on this one when I get the white to hit 255. I will have a go at your suggestions tomorrow and see how it turns out. I see what you're saying about needing more light on the rope, but less light on the background means I will lose my 255 white. I suppose I could get a little more depth by going down a stop or two and just vignetting the photo to a white background. I feel like it's cheating, which is fine by me for now; but I want to be able to achieve this shot without cheating in post. Plus, I'm not so sure a white bordered vignette would even look good, I think it might be too obvious and look amateur.

I know that there is a way to get a white background on this shot with minimal to no post work, I just feel like I am missing something. I know I could use a lot of education and experience, but those don't happen overnight. I am going to start trying to work on photography more on a regular basis so I don't feel so fresh every time I pick up my cameras. If you guys have any more ideas for this shot that will help me today, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks for everything so far too, the replies have been quite helpful already.

Scatterbrained · Sep 14, 2014

First, do you have a lightmeter? If not, I'd recommend turning on the highlight warning (blinkies) and turning down your background lights until the background stops blinking, then bump them just enough to bring the blinking back.

Second, quit using white shoot through umbrellas. You're throwing light everywhere and it's not helping your cause.

Third, set your lighting for the subject up using a grey card, or better yet, a white/grey/black card (again assuming no light meter). With a grey card you should have a spike right in the middle of your histogram from the card, this will tell you the exposure is pretty much spot on. This will ensure a proper exposure of the subject.

For this kind of shot you can set a bare speedlight on one side and a white card on the other. The bare speedlight will provide a hard light that will accentuate texture while the card will soften and provide fill, without throwing light all over the room.

Or you can simply take the light you have overhead and turn it around so the umbrella is directly over the subject. You're currently trying to bounce light down from a shoot through umbrella; not the most efficient way to do things.

Derrel · Sep 14, 2014

Take a look here, at Figure 14. You'' see that 240 is "white" as well...you do not have to be at 255 to make the backdrop "white". Again, you have wayyyy too much light on the background, and are under-lighting, and under-exposing the black rope. Digital Zone System

Scatterbrained · Sep 14, 2014

240-245 is generally considered "white with detail", and you can see the difference between 240 and 255 if you drop a square of 240 into a background of 255. 255 can be done in camera, you just have to know how to set up and dial in the lights.

Mystery · Sep 16, 2014

Scatterbrained said:
First, do you have a lightmeter? If not, I'd recommend turning on the highlight warning (blinkies) and turning down your background lights until the background stops blinking, then bump them just enough to bring the blinking back.

Second, quit using white shoot through umbrellas. You're throwing light everywhere and it's not helping your cause.

Third, set your lighting for the subject up using a grey card, or better yet, a white/grey/black card (again assuming no light meter). With a grey card you should have a spike right in the middle of your histogram from the card, this will tell you the exposure is pretty much spot on. This will ensure a proper exposure of the subject.

For this kind of shot you can set a bare speedlight on one side and a white card on the other. The bare speedlight will provide a hard light that will accentuate texture while the card will soften and provide fill, without throwing light all over the room. Or you can simply take the light you have overhead and turn it around so the umbrella is directly over the subject. You're currently trying to bounce light down from a shoot through umbrella; not the most efficient way to do things.

I have the black bounce covers for the umbrellas, I was just trying to quickly switch the setup to see how it would work. I will throw the covers on and see if it improves.

I don't have a light meter yet. I am saving a bit instead of buying something cheap. I don't have a gray card either, I keep meaning to get one.

I have a bunch of foam core boards and and stuff to modify light with, I'll try your suggestion and see how it works.

Derrel said:
Take a look here, at Figure 14. You'' see that 240 is "white" as well...you do not have to be at 255 to make the backdrop "white". Again, you have wayyyy too much light on the background, and are under-lighting, and under-exposing the black rope. Digital Zone System

I understand that you're saying 240 is still considered white, both technically and to the eye. I agree with you that there is little to be desired by a 255 white background. However, these shots are going to be used primarily on websites which have a white background on the photo gallery. A frame filled with anything short of 255 will look like the image posted below by Scatterbrained.

Scatterbrained said:
240-245 is generally considered "white with detail", and you can see the difference between 240 and 255 if you drop a square of 240 into a background of 255. 255 can be done in camera, you just have to know how to set up and dial in the lights.

When you say 255 can be "done" in camera, what exactly are you saying?

Scatterbrained · Sep 16, 2014

Mystery said:
......................................When you say 255 can be "done" in camera, what exactly are you saying?

If you read my earlier post, I talked about using the highlight warning to bring the background up until it just starts to clip. That would be your 255 (if shooting in jpeg, Lr will automatically pull the whites back upon upload). You do this with only your background light turned on. Keep the subject a decent distance from the background, and use flags to keep areas of the background that aren't in the frame from kicking light back around the subject. Another option would be to use a background that just barely fills the frame.

Doing this you should end up with a solid white background and a silhouetted subject. Then you can turn the background light off and set up the lighting for the subject. Get the subject so that it is lit correctly without lighting the background. Once you have the two set it's just a matter of turning on the all the lights and taking the shot.

Granted it's a lot easier to do with a light meter, or at least a grey card, but it can be done simply by chimping and adjusting while watching the histogram and blinkies.

Mystery · Sep 16, 2014

Scatterbrained said:
If you read my earlier post, I talked about using the highlight warning to bring the background up until it just starts to clip. That would be your 255 (if shooting in jpeg, Lr will automatically pull the whites back upon upload). You do this with only your background light turned on. Keep the subject a decent distance from the background, and use flags to keep areas of the background that aren't in the frame from kicking light back around the subject. Another option would be to use a background that just barely fills the frame.

Doing this you should end up with a solid white background and a silhouetted subject. Then you can turn the background light off and set up the lighting for the subject. Get the subject so that it is lit correctly without lighting the background. Once you have the two set it's just a matter of turning on the all the lights and taking the shot. Granted it's a lot easier to do with a light meter, or at least a grey card, but it can be done simply by chimping and adjusting while watching the histogram and blinkies.

Oh, ok. I was going to try what you suggested, but now that you explain it more thoroughly, it seems I am already doing something similar to that. I am shooting RAW to a CF card, but I also send jpeg to an eyefi card that goes to my computer. I am basically previewing on the computer, like tethered shooting instead of the LCD. I am lighting my background and verifying exposure on the computer. I am going to try and spread my subject and background further apart to see if it helps a little. I will also try all the other suggestions here. I'm getting ready to start shooting here shortly, I'll post up when I have something new to show.

Thanks again everyone.

Mystery · Sep 23, 2014

Hey Folks,

Sorry for my delay replying. I didn't come back yet, because I got too busy and haven't had a chance to get back to the photo work. Hopefully I will find time tomorrow to work on the photos, but I wanted to ask a question before I proceed.....

With regards only to white background photography, how much post work is usually done with the background?

I ask this because I am noticing that the photos on glass are lacking a shadow and I feel the images I am taking really need a shadow. I do still have my sheet of white lexan, and I can achieve nice shadows shooting on it. However, there is absolutely no way I know of to get a white background off the camera without a completely overexposed subject while shooting directly on the white lexan. So, this brings me back to my question. Rather than trying to achieve white on the camera, should I just be planning on having to isolate the subject on every photo in post to get what I want? I am already doing post work to touch up the products, and adding too much to my editing could become a problem. I want to be realistic here, though. So, any advice on this subject?

astroNikon · Sep 23, 2014

Mystery said:
With regards only to white background photography, how much post work is usually done with the background?

ZERO

Mystery said:
I ask this because I am noticing that the photos on glass are lacking a shadow and I feel the images I am taking really need a shadow. I do still have my sheet of white lexan, and I can achieve nice shadows shooting on it.

I want to be realistic here, though. So, any advice on this subject?

Why don't you take your background. raise it up a bit, move it closer and let it curve onto the top you have there so it can be your background AND you base with a seamless transition. Same exact white color then.