Digital technology ruined photography for me, or did people ruin it? (or both)

[Buckster]

Well at this juncture it is a 'Mexican Stand-off'. so I'm outa here, and will let future readers read the conjecture and my facts lol...and draw their own conclusions. The whole thing is academic anyhow since not a single soul on here has the slightest clue what lies in the future for either tech or the universe.

You've yet to prove any of your so-called "facts". (You use that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means.)

We know enough about the future of tech to know that it doesn't change rapidly enough to make our digital photos suddenly unreadable. As for the universe, if it ends suddenly, our photos, in any format, digital or analog, will be the least of our worries.

 

[sashbar]

Well at this juncture it is a 'Mexican Stand-off'. so I'm outa here, and will let future readers read the conjecture and my facts lol...and draw their own conclusions. The whole thing is academic anyhow since not a single soul on here has the slightest clue what lies in the future for either tech or the universe.

There is one thing that I can predict: the number of truly creative and talented people per sq. mile will remain about the same whatever will be the technology.

 

[Ysarex]

Well at this juncture it is a 'Mexican Stand-off'. so I'm outa here, and will let future readers read the conjecture and my facts lol...and draw their own conclusions. The whole thing is academic anyhow since not a single soul on here has the slightest clue what lies in the future for either tech or the universe.

No it's not. You're points have been demonstrated incorrect.

Joe

 

[sashbar]

Digital is killing photography for those who are unable to raise above the average but want to belong to some "elite club".

Wait, there's a club? Cool. So, is there like a secret handshake too?

The WAS a club. It was called Darkroom Alchemy. Now it is closed for good.

Drat. Day late and a dollar short, as usual. Say, since they closed - did they have like a stuffed deer head and some of those really big leather chairs? Might those be for sale then?

No, you just needed to smell the fixer and know all stages on initiation, aka K-14 Process.

 

[waday]

Digital is killing photography for those who are unable to raise above the average but want to belong to some "elite club".

Wait, there's a club? Cool. So, is there like a secret handshake too?

 

[Gary A.]

Digital is killing photography for those who are unable to raise above the average but want to belong to some "elite club".

Wait, there's a club? Cool. So, is there like a secret handshake too?

The WAS a club. It was called Darkroom Alchemy. Now it is closed for good.

You mean film is dead?

 

[Buckster]

A few years ago I discovered a box full of prints in the garage that was laying around for decades.

You "discovered" them, meaning you didn't even know they were there. They could have been in a landfill, for all you knew. How many that you haven't "discovered" might very well BE in a landfill or otherwise lost forever?

I doubt I would have retrieved anything if it was a hard drive.

Why?

Nine years ago, my daughter went to Italy with her Senior class. She took a TON of digital photos and stored them on a portable drive I gave her for the trip. When she got home she moved them from the portable drive to her computer, and gave me the portable drive, cleaned.

She never backed them up from there. (Insert ominous sound here).

A couple years went by, and then her hard drive crashed. HARD. Nothing retrievable. Her Italy photos were gone. FOREVER. She learned a lesson about backing up her files, but it was a lesson learned too late for her prized Italy photos.

More years passed, and occasionally, she would lament the loss of her Italy pictures.

One day, I ran across that old portable hard drive she used for the trip; The one she cleaned before returning it to me. I seldom ever used it myself, especially after Italy. I just didn't have a reason to. So, mostly on a whim, I ran a file recovery software on it, just to see if there were any Italy pics still recoverable on it.

It found every one of them. Thousands of them. And the videos also. All intact. I recovered them all. I backed them up on two hard drives, and a couple of DVDs. The next time I saw my daughter, I handed her one of the DVDs with a grin (not labelled), and told her to take a look. She plugged it in, and had one of the best days of her life.

True story.

??????

If they were in a landfill I most likely would not have discovered them wouldn't I ... and there isn't much I can do about those that I haven't discovered. The same goes for digital media. If an old hard drive filled with old images makes it way to a landfill ... not much I can do about it.

You keep missing the point: With digital, it's insanely easy and cheap to have as many backups in as many places as you can imagine of EXACTLY the ORIGINAL equivalent of the slide or neg. If the hard drive goes to the landfill, no problem, because there are PLENTY of other copies of it still available.

I don't know how to explain it any clearer than that.

If she had shot film ... the negatives would have been her back up ... end of story.

If she had shot film, she wouldn't even have known until AFTER the trip if they turned out at all, were blurry, were over or underexposed, were shot with the lens cap on, if the camera was malfunctioning the whole time and not even pulling the film through, etc., etc., etc.

And if her film, including prints, accidentally went to a landfill or were destroyed some other way, there would have been no way to recover them - TRULY End of story.

 

[Gary A.]

I suspect a a hard drive and negatives caught up in a firestorm or in a flood would fair no better.

Here's the BIG difference: The box of analog is the ONLY copy of those negs and transparencies. The hard drive is likely just one of possibly MANY copies, all exactly the same, of those DIGITAL equivalents of negs and transparencies.

One is easily recoverable by simply pulling up one of the copies. The other has no copies to pull up.

Maybe ... maybe not. That is all speculation. I have multiple prints of the same thing, it isn't hard to copy slides or negatives. (Think about movies.)

So, you're saying that having multiple prints from your slides and negs is the same as having the original slides and negs if they were lost or destroyed? If that's true, then why hang onto the slides and negs at all?

You know Buckster ... with no disrespect ... your arguments really are silly. There isn't any difference between sending a box of negatives to the landfill or a box of hard drives. The only difference is upon discovery, negs and photos are immediately recognizable for what they are ... while a hard drive may not be. It is the element of hiddenness and the effort to discover what is hidden that may spell the difference between life and death of your images.

 

[Buckster]

I don't know the names of the formats but NASA has either lost imagery or come very very close to it in the past. This was of course due to a failure of diligence in copying things forward. But that's the point, absent diligence, digital is terrible whereas film can be pretty good.

Tell that to the boxes of negs and transparencies I used to have that succumbed to water damage, humidity, mold, mildew, and an ex-wife who simply threw tons of them away while getting ready for a major move from Detroit to Boston, where I already had secured a job.

No, I'd say that absent diligence, film is no better off.

What is it about this post that you disagree with, Didereaux?

 

[Buckster]

A few years ago I discovered a box full of prints in the garage that was laying around for decades.

You "discovered" them, meaning you didn't even know they were there. They could have been in a landfill, for all you knew. How many that you haven't "discovered" might very well BE in a landfill or otherwise lost forever?

I doubt I would have retrieved anything if it was a hard drive.

Why?

Nine years ago, my daughter went to Italy with her Senior class. She took a TON of digital photos and stored them on a portable drive I gave her for the trip. When she got home she moved them from the portable drive to her computer, and gave me the portable drive, cleaned.

She never backed them up from there. (Insert ominous sound here).

A couple years went by, and then her hard drive crashed. HARD. Nothing retrievable. Her Italy photos were gone. FOREVER. She learned a lesson about backing up her files, but it was a lesson learned too late for her prized Italy photos.

More years passed, and occasionally, she would lament the loss of her Italy pictures.

One day, I ran across that old portable hard drive she used for the trip; The one she cleaned before returning it to me. I seldom ever used it myself, especially after Italy. I just didn't have a reason to. So, mostly on a whim, I ran a file recovery software on it, just to see if there were any Italy pics still recoverable on it.

It found every one of them. Thousands of them. And the videos also. All intact. I recovered them all. I backed them up on two hard drives, and a couple of DVDs. The next time I saw my daughter, I handed her one of the DVDs with a grin (not labelled), and told her to take a look. She plugged it in, and had one of the best days of her life.

True story.

What is it about this post that you disagree with, Didereaux?

 

[Buckster]

I suspect a a hard drive and negatives caught up in a firestorm or in a flood would fair no better.

Here's the BIG difference: The box of analog is the ONLY copy of those negs and transparencies. The hard drive is likely just one of possibly MANY copies, all exactly the same, of those DIGITAL equivalents of negs and transparencies.

One is easily recoverable by simply pulling up one of the copies. The other has no copies to pull up.

Maybe ... maybe not. That is all speculation. I have multiple prints of the same thing, it isn't hard to copy slides or negatives. (Think about movies.)

So, you're saying that having multiple prints from your slides and negs is the same as having the original slides and negs if they were lost or destroyed? If that's true, then why hang onto the slides and negs at all?

You know Buckster ... with no disrespect ... your arguments really are silly.

Feel free to enlighten me. I'm always open to learning.

 

[Buckster]

Completely ignoring the cogent part, "How about the wee fact that data is continually changing the format that is is written in, and on. Do those backups also store the OS's, and Apps used to create the data? " Try again.

Explain how exactly that matters?

Why does it matter what kind of media a TIF or JPG is written on, as long as it can be copied to other media when the time comes?

Why does the backup have to store the program the TIF or JPG was created with, as long as other programs can read the files?

Why does the backup have to store the OS, as long as other OS's can read the data?

This ain't the wild west of the very early days of computer systems, where we might need to get our hands on an Altair to read the files that were written by one. Do you really think that suddenly overnight, no browsers will be able to read JPGs anymore? Do you really think that suddenly overnight, no programs will be able to read RAW files anymore? Or TIFs, or PNGs, or any other common image format?

Be serious for a moment and explain why we should panic about how we might all lose our digital images per your warnings. Spell out a realistic scenario.

What is it about this post that you disagree with, Didereaux? And why don't you at least try to answer the questions? Enlighten us.

 

[Gary A.]

A few years ago I discovered a box full of prints in the garage that was laying around for decades.

You "discovered" them, meaning you didn't even know they were there. They could have been in a landfill, for all you knew. How many that you haven't "discovered" might very well BE in a landfill or otherwise lost forever?

I doubt I would have retrieved anything if it was a hard drive.

Why?

Nine years ago, my daughter went to Italy with her Senior class. She took a TON of digital photos and stored them on a portable drive I gave her for the trip. When she got home she moved them from the portable drive to her computer, and gave me the portable drive, cleaned.

She never backed them up from there. (Insert ominous sound here).

A couple years went by, and then her hard drive crashed. HARD. Nothing retrievable. Her Italy photos were gone. FOREVER. She learned a lesson about backing up her files, but it was a lesson learned too late for her prized Italy photos.

More years passed, and occasionally, she would lament the loss of her Italy pictures.

One day, I ran across that old portable hard drive she used for the trip; The one she cleaned before returning it to me. I seldom ever used it myself, especially after Italy. I just didn't have a reason to. So, mostly on a whim, I ran a file recovery software on it, just to see if there were any Italy pics still recoverable on it.

It found every one of them. Thousands of them. And the videos also. All intact. I recovered them all. I backed them up on two hard drives, and a couple of DVDs. The next time I saw my daughter, I handed her one of the DVDs with a grin (not labelled), and told her to take a look. She plugged it in, and had one of the best days of her life.

True story.

??????

If they were in a landfill I most likely would not have discovered them wouldn't I ... and there isn't much I can do about those that I haven't discovered. The same goes for digital media. If an old hard drive filled with old images makes it way to a landfill ... not much I can do about it.

You keep missing the point: With digital, it's insanely easy and cheap to have as many backups in as many places as you can imagine of EXACTLY the ORIGINAL equivalent of the slide or neg. If the hard drive goes to the landfill, no problem, because there are PLENTY of other copies of it still available.

I don't know how to explain it any clearer than that.

If she had shot film ... the negatives would have been her back up ... end of story.

If she had shot film, she wouldn't even have known until AFTER the trip if they turned out at all, were blurry, were over or underexposed, were shot with the lens cap on, if the camera was malfunctioning the whole time and not even pulling the film through, etc., etc., etc.

And if her film, including prints, accidentally went to a landfill or were destroyed some other way, there would have been no way to recover them - TRULY End of story.

And if my aunt had huevos she be my uncle.

 

[Gary A.]

"Feel free to enlighten me. I'm always open to learning."

Buckster: Let's start with this statement, "So, you're saying that having multiple prints from your slides and negs is the same as having the original slides and negs if they were lost or destroyed? If that's true, then why hang onto the slides and negs at all?"

Where is the logic here. Explain ... maybe I can learn something new.

 

[Buckster]

I don't know the names of the formats but NASA has either lost imagery or come very very close to it in the past. This was of course due to a failure of diligence in copying things forward. But that's the point, absent diligence, digital is terrible whereas film can be pretty good.

Tell that to the boxes of negs and transparencies I used to have that succumbed to water damage, humidity, mold, mildew, and an ex-wife who simply threw tons of them away while getting ready for a major move from Detroit to Boston, where I already had secured a job.

No, I'd say that absent diligence, film is no better off.

On that point I agree. But the boxes require only the owners low tech diligence to preserve. On the other hand tech data requires a hugely expensive and complex operation to preserve its data.

No sir, it doesn't.

Simple denial, sir, is not proof of anything!

What more do you need? It's just simply NOT a "hugely expensive and complex operation" the way you claim it is.

I see that you disagree with this post, Didereaux. Okay, well, since it's your claim that it IS a "hugely expensive and complex operation", it's your burden of proof to prove it. Please do so at your earliest convenience, as I surely look forward to being enlightened, having done a lot of backups for a lot of years without encountering these aspects you speak of.