Emotional support animals & airplanes

[limr30 3]

Clearly, you all are convinced that you know more about her and her situation better than anyone else. Must be nice to be so confident in your snap judgments of everyone who is not you.

So I am done talking to stone walls.

 

[smoke665]

I find it amazing how you are able to know exactly what was in the mind of a 21-year-old woman. How do you do it? It must be a gift to be able to know exactly what she was thinking and feeling, what her capability of making desicions was like.

Since you chose to write out a thoughtful response rather than slam a "disagree X" without explanation, you deserve an equally thoughtful reply, Obviously we can't know the individual girls thoughts, because none of us have the ability see across the universe into the mind of another person, but as adults when you don't have all the facts, you can arrive at a logical conclusion by application of Logical Reasoning. I won't bore you with definitions as I suspect you are familiar with it.

1. At 21 years of age, you are considered an adult able to share in all the rights and RESPONSIBILITIES of adulthood. The law makes no distinction between the mental capabilities of the individual, unless same individual is mentally impaired. By the article, we know that she was 21 years of age (an adult by legal definition). Two, she was enrolled in college, which implies some level of mental competence. Which leads to Assumption #1 - She was an adult capable of making rational decisions.

2. She obviously didn't walk to the airport from her college. She either took commercial transportation (which would imply financial ability), either on her own or by her parents support, or a friend transported her. She tried to rent a car (which again implies financial ability). She would have learned on check in shortly after arrival, that the hamster was not going to be allowed on board. If a friend did transport her they should not have been that far away and could have returned to help. Based on the fact that she would have had to have some type of financial ability to rent the car, she could have also taken a shuttle from the airport to a motel. That leads to Assumption #2 - She had transportation options.

3. No where in the article does it say that she contacted any humane societies, shelters, or kennels. In the article there is in fact a negative response from PETA, therefore Assumption #3 - She made no attempt to contact a place of shelter for the animal.

4. No where in the article does it say that someone "forced" her to destroy the animal. In fact she is quoted as saying "she thought it would be less cruel to flush it than release it". So Assumption #4 - She made the decision to flush the animal.

I can probably come up a with a few more known facts and assumptions based on those facts, but you get the idea. I think there's enough given facts to deduce logically that she committed a cruel an inhumane act by her own accord. Going one step further and applying Inductive Reasoning you can see a sufficient pattern or a trend then generalizing and extrapolating the information, to again conclude that she committed a cruel and inhumane act by her own accord. Finally by Abductive Reasoning you can ascertain from the assumptions and conclusions already arrived at that there is sufficient information to arrive at a conclusion based on probabilities, that she committed a cruel and inhumane act by her own accord.

So while I can't say 100% for sure what was in the girls mind, I can deduce with great accuracy her actions. Letting this ADULT off with excuses is not something I or any other rational thinking individual should do, she should be ticketed, not let off the hook.

 

[Derrel]

I was a Resident Assistant at the University of Oregon in the mid-1980's...renting a car for dorm trips was basically an impossibility due to age restrictions. Out of 85 students in my dorm, we had _one_ who was able to rent a vehicle for one of our trips. We always had to rely on university-provided vans.

Typically, one needs to be 25 years of age, and have a major credit card in one's own name, to rent a vehicle. The credit card, not debit card, in one's OWN name, is the sticky point for many younger people.

Seems like the idea that this young woman (not a girl) could have rented a car keeps coming up in your personalized intellectual narrative, and I'm here to say, car rental was likely not an option, and if it was, it would likely have been presented to her as major hassle.

Minimum Age Policies & Guide to Underage Car Rental

She may be an ADULT as you put it...but to the car rental companies, no, she's not yet there...they don't rent to youngsters without substantial assurances, and extra, daily fees--if they will rent at all.

I have no comments on her actions nor state of mind, but just want to point out that one of your key "points" has a smoking, 12-gauge shotgun-blast hole in it...

 

[limr30 3]

This isn't just about intelligence or options that seem clear to other people who have never been even remotely in situations like this.

She reportedly had medical issues that gave her so much anxiety that her doctor approved a support animal to help with that anxiety. Sure, everyone gets anxious with medical issues, but when there'a also an underlying anxiety disorder, the stress reaches levels that leaves a person much less able to function.

Regardless of her intelligence level, do you know how anxiety can alter a person's thought process? How it might affect a person's ability to think rationally? How it may affect her ability to react to the authority - real or otherwise - of the airline employee?

I have been closer to this situation than any of you who are ready to crucify this young woman. This could have meant that I would be even harder on her, because I know that I would not have killed my bird if the airline employee told me to. I think it's awful that she came to the conclusion that she did and agree that it was the wrong thing to do. But I also remember how stressful it was to be placed in even a very mild version of her situation. And I am also quite aware that I am not her, and I don't know her other circumstances or issues that she is dealing with, so no, I refuse to heap criticism and blame on her.

I just feel sadness both at her actions and at the rush to label her a monster.

Influence of Anxiety on Cognitive Control Processes - Oxford Research Encyclopedia of Psychology

"Experiencing elevated levels of anxiety affects how individuals see and respond to their world. As a result, a considerable amount of research has been completed to increase our understanding of how anxiety affects cognitive processes. This literature has indicated that individuals with elevated anxiety devote their attention toward threatening images and words, at the expense of ongoing activities (Bar-Haim, Lamy, Pergamin, Bakermans-Kranenburg, & IJzendoorn, 2007). In addition, emotional information is maintained in our thoughts, which can lead to impaired concentration (Eysenck, Derakshan, Santos, & Calvo, 2007), as well as deficits in our ability to notice and correct any resulting mistakes (Olvet & Hajcak, 2009). Therefore, elevated levels of anxiety (i.e., high trait anxiety), as well as anxiety disorders, are characterized by biases in both automatic and strategic ways in how one perceives their world (Bar-Haim et al., 2007). These biases are displayed to stimuli relevant to their fears. For example, individuals with social anxiety disorder are characterized by biases related to social rejection, and individuals with posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) are associated with biases related to trauma-relevant stimuli (e.g., Yiend, 2010)."

 

[vintagesnaps]

I don't think we necessarily know the whole story. What adds to that is for example I've noticed articles on the Fox News website that seem to be rewritten from other sources and the info. seems inaccurate or inconsistent. (And I don't know who's writing some of them because they sure as heck aren't written by journalists or writers, not if I'm mentally proofreading as I go... getting off my soapbox now).

What I wonder about is a seeming lack of planning if leaving school the week before Thanksgiving knowing you're going to miss the last couple of weeks or so of the semester and would need to make arrangements for missed classes/assignments... and if not for the medical appt. instead if she was just going home for the weekend and coming back, she'd still need to be making arrangements for the pet during break in another couple of weeks or so.

I know universities have something in place for students who have a medical situation to make up school work, and there must be an office/dept. that provides support to students. If this was an urgent medical situation, didn't she think to try to figure out if someone could take care of the pet for the time being til she could make further arrangements?

It's unfortunate she hadn't thought this through a little more - and just googled the policy on the airlines' site to make sure (which took me about a minute). It probably would have been better to have made plans whether to board the pet til next semester or take it home and how to get it there.

I wondered too, somebody brought her to the airport, somebody at home will be picking her up, most people have cell phones... wouldn't she have had to call someone anyway that she was taking a later flight? If she was able to talk to a reporter, then couldn't she have talked to someone to help her figure out what to do (if worrying about her medical situation and needed help figuring out what to do?).
edit - I think this is a red flag to me, talking to reporter(s)... I don't get that being the thing to do after a traumatic situation. I don't know...

I imagine there will be more that will come out later because some of this seems like there's something missing, kind of like waiting for the other shoe to drop.

 

[Derrel]

>>SNIP>>I imagine there will be more that will come out later because some of this seems like there's something missing, kind of like waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Wait...you're not going to soundly condemn her, based on some half-baked article? What nerve you have! [insert heavy sarcasm emoji here > x < ]

 

[limr30 3]

I don't think we necessarily know the whole story. What adds to that is for example I've noticed articles on the Fox News website that seem to be rewritten from other sources and the info. seems inaccurate or inconsistent. (And I don't know who's writing some of them because they sure as heck aren't written by journalists or writers, not if I'm mentally proofreading as I go... getting off my soapbox now).

What I wonder about is a seeming lack of planning if leaving school the week before Thanksgiving knowing you're going to miss the last couple of weeks or so of the semester and would need to make arrangements for missed classes/assignments... and if not for the medical appt. instead if she was just going home for the weekend and coming back, she'd still need to be making arrangements for the pet during break in another couple of weeks or so.

I know universities have something in place for students who have a medical situation to make up school work, and there must be an office/dept. that provides support to students. If this was an urgent medical situation, didn't she think to try to figure out if someone could take care of the pet for the time being til she could make further arrangements?

It's unfortunate she hadn't thought this through a little more - and just googled the policy on the airlines' site to make sure (which took me about a minute). It probably would have been better to have made plans whether to board the pet til next semester or take it home and how to get it there.

I wondered too, somebody brought her to the airport, somebody at home will be picking her up, most people have cell phones... wouldn't she have had to call someone anyway that she was taking a later flight? If she was able to talk to a reporter, then couldn't she have talked to someone to help her figure out what to do (if she's worried about her medical situation and needed help figuring out what to do?).

I imagine there will be more that will come out later because some of this seems like there's something missing, kind of like waiting for the other shoe to drop.

It's true - there are a lot of questions about this, which is why I don't understand or agree with the instant pile of judgement thrown at her.

The point of a support animal is to have it with you, so if she was going home for a quick weekend home before finals, it would make sense to me that she would want the hamster with her instead of leaving it in the care of someone else. The article said that she checked with the airline to make sure she could travel with the animal, and they said okay. So she was trying to make arrangements ahead of time.

I find it confusing that first she was labeled an idiot, but then it was argued that she must be smart enough since she's in college. Once again, intelligence levels are not the issue: it's the ability to think critically, consider alternatives, and make logical desicions, all in the midst of a very stressful situation that may have been made worse by a possible underlying anxiety disorder that would have affected a person's ability to make use of these skills. I work with college students every day. Even in the best of times, these skills are not as well-developed as some here think they are or should be.

 

[smoke665]

I have no comments on her actions nor state of mind, but just want to point out that one of your key "points" has a smoking, 12-gauge shotgun-blast hole in it...

The point was not that she could or could not rent the car, but that in order to rent the car she had to have some form of financial ability which would have given her access to the option I pointed out.

She reportedly had medical issues that gave her so much anxiety that her doctor approved a support animal to help with that anxiety. Sure, everyone gets anxious with medical issues, but when there'a also an underlying anxiety disorder, the stress reaches levels that leaves a person much less able to function

You were quick to point out my lack of understanding her state of mind, but yet you seem to be assuming that you know the level of anxiety she was experiencing. Another point to my reasoning. My son when he was about 13-14 was just sure he wanted a hamster as a pet. A friend of his had one cage, food, toys, everything for free. We allowed him to get it under the rule, that he had to care for it, clean the cage, and if he found himself unable to care for it, would have to find a new home. I can tell you that was the nastiest creature, even with daily cage cleaning it stunk up the house and noisy. They are vocal. It took about 3 weeks, and son was ready to give it up. Took a couple days, and $10 of his own money to convince another friend to take it!!! So if anxiety was her issue, then she had the wrong animal.

Whatever the girls problems the fact remains she acted irresponsibly and cruelly. My intent isn't to label her a monster, but neither, do I think excuses should be forwarded to minimize her actions.

Another article from Time. Basically the same Spirit Slams Woman Who Flushed Emotional Support Hamster

 

[limr30 3]

I have no comments on her actions nor state of mind, but just want to point out that one of your key "points" has a smoking, 12-gauge shotgun-blast hole in it...

The point was not that she could or could not rent the car, but that in order to rent the car she had to have some form of financial ability which would have given her access to the option I pointed out.

She reportedly had medical issues that gave her so much anxiety that her doctor approved a support animal to help with that anxiety. Sure, everyone gets anxious with medical issues, but when there'a also an underlying anxiety disorder, the stress reaches levels that leaves a person much less able to function

You were quick to point out my lack of understanding her state of mind, but yet you seem to be assuming that you know the level of anxiety she was experiencing. Another point to my reasoning. My son when he was about 13-14 was just sure he wanted a hamster as a pet. A friend of his had one cage, food, toys, everything for free. We allowed him to get it under the rule, that he had to care for it, clean the cage, and if he found himself unable to care for it, would have to find a new home. I can tell you that was the nastiest creature, even with daily cage cleaning it stunk up the house and noisy. They are vocal. It took about 3 weeks, and son was ready to give it up. Took a couple days, and $10 of his own money to convince another friend to take it!!! So if anxiety was her issue, then she had the wrong animal.

Whatever the girls problems the fact remains she acted irresponsibly and cruelly. My intent isn't to label her a monster, but neither, do I think excuses should be forwarded to minimize her actions.

Another article from Time. Basically the same Spirit Slams Woman Who Flushed Emotional Support Hamster

No, I was not assuming, I was positing logical conclusions based on the available information.

Now what was that I was saying about stone walls?

Oh yeah. I'm done.

 

[vintagesnaps]

Truth will out... well, maybe not always. But maybe there's more going on with her than we know, that there's a possibly undiagnosed anxiety/other disorder of some sort. Or, there could be an attempt to get sympathy and the truth got somewhat distorted. Or we just don't yet know the whole story.

I would think if you can't travel without the pet, you'd get on airline websites and make sure what you can/can't do (on a particular airline) before you'd be doing traveling with it. (Like Spirit - none in the category of rodents; pet birds are OK but not livestock, so don't plan to fly with your rooster or Thanksgiving turkey I guess).

I'm this week trying to find out thru my prescription provider where to get a vaccine... was told a pharmacy is now approved... but I'm calling the pharmacy before I go to make sure. Of course that's because I've had problems with the prescription service before and know better than to just go by what one person on the phone there tells me!

 

[smoke665]

I find it confusing that first she was labeled an idiot, but then it was argued that she must be smart enough since she's in college. Once again, intelligence levels are not the issue: it's the ability to think critically, consider alternatives, and make logical desicions

Being the linguist I thought you would recognize #2.

idiot
(ˈɪdɪət)
n
1. (Psychiatry) a person with severe mental retardation
2. a foolish or senseless person

I've seen other definitions include the "act of committing foolish or senseless acts". Correct me if I'm wrong but flushing a hamster down the toilet was pretty foolish.

No, I was not assuming, I was positing based on the available information.

I had to go back and read the article, but I could find no reference of an actual doctor's order, nor the presence of one when she checked in, only a vague comment of the existence of one. Given the recent crackdowns by airlines over allowing support animals on their planes, I think at least I would have had the doctors orders with me. Without benefit of collaborative facts, it's an invalid assumption that she had disorders that would prevent her from making logical decisions.

 

[Derrel]

Apparently "emotional support" isn't worth all that much anymore!!!

Spirit Airlines employee told student to flush emotional support hamster down the toilet, student alleges

Okay smoke, I'll call your flushed hamster story, and raise to a naked airline passenger that forces a mid-air flight turn-around!

Naked passenger forces turnaround of Alaska Airlines flight

 

[vintagesnaps]

And now that I think about it, even if it was the airline's fault to tell her OK when according to their policies it wasn't... I don't think she may have been getting home in time for her appt. and might have to reschedule anyway. (This was the Tuesday before Thanksgiving, call the doctor's office and see what they say.)

So maybe the bus would take longer but might have been a possibility, she would have gotten home safely with the hamster. Maybe if she needed to reschedule, it was Thanksgiving weekend, she'd probably be looking at the next week anyway. Even when we didn't have cell phones I could find a phone booth and call someone to help me figure out what to do (when you're young and your car breaks down in the middle of nowhere and it's a little scary being stranded in the boonies). That's what I don't get, somebody just dropped her off, somebody's picking her up, why not call them and say I can't bring my hamster on the plane, what should I do?

 

[smoke665]

Apparently "emotional support" isn't worth all that much anymore!!!

Spirit Airlines employee told student to flush emotional support hamster down the toilet, student alleges

Okay smoke, I'll call your flushed hamster story, and raise to a naked airline passenger that forces a mid-air flight turn-around!

Naked passenger forces turnaround of Alaska Airlines flight

Oh don't get me started on "naked people calls". I hated those, even with gloves on!!!!!!!!!!!! Had one really large sweaty naked woman in the middle of the road that took 6 of us restrain. I've broke horses that weren't as difficult as this woman. My wife and I both responded on one that was running up and down the road like the Flash, shrieking like a banshee. Wife handed her gloves to the LEO on scene, and said either you catch her or light her up, we didn't sign up for this. There was a time when the moon was full we would have a rash of naked women calls, usually drugs were involved.

 

[limr30 3]

Truth will out... well, maybe not always. But maybe there's more going on with her than we know, that there's a possibly undiagnosed anxiety/other disorder of some sort. Or, there could be an attempt to get sympathy and the truth got somewhat distorted. Or we just don't yet know the whole story.

I would think if you can't travel without the pet, you'd get on airline websites and make sure what you can/can't do (on a particular airline) before you'd be doing traveling with it. (Like Spirit - none in the category of rodents; pet birds are OK but not livestock, so don't plan to fly with your rooster or Thanksgiving turkey I guess).

I'm this week trying to find out thru my prescription provider where to get a vaccine... was told a pharmacy is now approved... but I'm calling the pharmacy before I go to make sure. Of course that's because I've had problems with the prescription service before and know better than to just go by what one person on the phone there tells me!

Did you see the Snopes article? FACT CHECK: Did Spirit Airlines Tell a Customer to Flush Her Hamster Down the Toilet?

"Spirit Airlines has firmly denied that their employee told Aldecosea to flush or release her pet. The airline concedes that an employee told Aldecosea over the phone that the hamster would be allowed on the flight, but says that the employee was mistaken and their policy does not allow rodents.

At first glance Spirit Airlines’ online written policies appear at first glance to allow for an emotional support hamster. However, clicking through to “additional policies” brings up a page with a list that includes this bullet point:

Spirit does not accept snakes, other reptiles, rodents, ferrets, and spiders.​

A version of the policies cached in September 2015 did not stipulate that those specific animals were not permitted, but it is not clear when the page changed to include that information. We contacted Spirit Airlines for further information about the hamster controversy, but have not yet received a response."

Also:

"Adlecosea says she has a note from her doctor certifying Pebbles as an emotional support animal, and that she obtained the hamster to help her cope with a growth on her neck. The growth turned out to be benign, but still had to be surgically removed, and she was on her way to Florida to undergo surgery when the alleged incident occurred. "