Experimenting with Flash

[tirediron]

I guess I have been doing it all wrong then. I bounce the flash, no modifier, TTL all night long.

You're obviously doing well for yourself, so no, you're clearly not doing it wrong, BUT could you do it even better if your changed your MO? Perhaps...

TTL is only usefull if you are shooting straight on?? False statement John. That's when bouncing flash became really popular when TTL is around.

Ehhh.... I started bouncing flash LONG before TTL flash metering came about and long, long, LONG before I could ever dream having a TTL flash when it did come about. I'll rephrase: "If it's a 'grab it or lose it' scenario, a PJ type shot, then by all means TTL, but for photographs, as opposed to pictures, I generally don't find the results from TTL flash work as pleasing as that from a manually calculated exposures.

In fairness to all, there is no right or wrong. What works for you is what works!

 

[Robin Usagani]

I am just trying to tell new photographers not to fall to all of these fancy light modifier scam like fong dong. That is why I disagreed with Whiskey. I dont know what you mean by MO.

 

[Robin Usagani]

The only advantage of off camera flash is when you cant really bounce (i.e. outdoor, dark wall/ceiling), or when you are trying to be creative with multiple flash guns. You also get more consistent result because when you bounce, the flash metering is doing it's own thing and you dont get consistent result (plus your bounce change all time). I hope that makes sense.

Sorry Schwetty, I think you're comparing apples and oranges. Bounced flash is one thing, off-camera flash is another animal altogether. Bounced flash is [usually] better than straight-on, on-camera flash, and off-camera flash is [usually] even better. Using modifiers is almost always better than relying on bounced flash, and TTL is only really useful if you're shooting straight on.

I am also confused why you said this. Are you supporting Fong Dong?

 

[tirediron]

I am also confused why you said this. Are you supporting Fong Dong?

Dude, them's fightin' words!!!

No, I mean proper speedlight softboxes, beauty-dishes, etc. While I have seen some good results from Gary Fong products, they're not IMO, what they seem claim to be which is a way to turn your speedlight into the equivalent of an entire studio strobe set.

 

[Robin Usagani]

Wuttt.. john is site moderator... gonna shut up now .

 

[tirediron]

Wuttt.. john is site moderator... gonna shut up now .

That I don't believe for a second! :greenpbl:

 

[Robin Usagani]

really though John, assuming i have good place to bounce my light, I will always pick bounce flash over off camera flash. Doesn't matter what modifier you use. I could make my light source a lot bigger than your umbrella/softbox. If all the walls are colorful or dark... then I think otherwise.

 

[Derrel]

When you bounce your flash, you actually already made your flash off the camera AND you made the light source really big (the size of whatever the projection of the flash on the ceiling or wall) and diffused. Adding bounce card to your flash will only add direct light which is what you are trying to avoid. Pretty much if you can bounce it, bounce everything. Don't use a bounce card.

Now, if you put the flash off the camera, all you are doing is putting the light source from an angle (which can already be accomplished with bounced on camera flash). Your flash is still harsh. Sure, you can add umbrella or softbox but then bouncing on camera is a lot easier because you can use your TTL, you can do 2nd curtain, you can do HSS/FP, which a lot of trigger wont do.

The only advantage of off camera flash is when you cant really bounce (i.e. outdoor, dark wall/ceiling), or when you are trying to be creative with multiple flash guns. You also get more consistent result because when you bounce, the flash metering is doing it's own thing and you dont get consistent result (plus your bounce change all time). I hope that makes sense.

I just simply can NOT agree with this, AT ALL. First off, when one bounces a flash indoors using standard front-facing bounce methods, there's a very great tendency for the light to come raining almost straight down, which is what creates the lifeless and dull look in the dog pics. Using "something", "anything", to get just a little bit of flash going right at the subject to create a catchlight is often better than straight,plain, forward-facing bounce flash. Try a bent business car, or a plastic spoon, taped or rubber-banded to the flash, so that a little bit of the flash beam hits the card or spoon. This is a method for CLOSE-range shooting, as you were doing with the dog...this is a 1980's PJ trick--not for long throws, but for CLOSE-range, indoor bounce flash shot with the flash-in-the-hotshoe method. Like the two shots of the dog.

As far as getting "good light metering" with TTL bounce flash...uh...that might be one of the single biggest weaknesses Canon cameras have had for the past decade. STRAIGHT-AHEAD e-TTL-II flash is decent, although nothing to write home about. Note the qualifier-e-TTL Version II. Color-blind flash and color-blind ambient light metering is a recipe for bad through the lens flash regulation. Nikon has been ahead on color-aware flash and color-=aware ambient metering + distance for a long time. Some of the differing opinions on bounce flash and flash as a whole come out of the tremendously different ways that Canon and Nikon have developed their flash metering and flash-regulation concepts. before e-TTL-II was developed, Canon had a HUGE problem with TTL flash being overly-sensitive to the specific AF spot that was active. The shiny d-slr sensor and AA filter makes the pre-flash rather so-so in terms of reliablilty and repeatability...film simply worked "better".

In many ways, the old AUTO-Thyristor flash metering is better than e-TTl, E-TTL II, d-TTL, or Nikon i-TTL.. It always "depends".

One of the single BIGGEST problems you will run in to when bouncing a single speedlight is that the flash will NOT be powerful enough to expose the shot well enough if you are using the lower ISO ranges with "normal flash units". Using HIGH-ISO settings and bouncing the fl;ash is a technique that Dennis Reggie (sp?) is sort of famous for. As Keith stated in post 10, it can be difficult to separate the BS from the good stuff; his link to Neil's web site is a good,good link that's free of the BS. You can try adding "+" exposure compensation on the flash unit--but if the room is big, the aperture small, or the ISO low, or any combo, then all the "+_" compensation in the world will not give any more exposure if the flash is "topped out"...

Bounce flash can look fantastic, very good, okay, or bad; it largely depends on the skill of the photographer and how he/she uses the equipment and the location.

 

[tirediron]

really though John, assuming i have good place to bounce my light, I will always pick bounce flash over off camera flash. Doesn't matter what modifier you use. I could make my light source a lot bigger than your umbrella/softbox. If all the walls are colorful or dark... then I think otherwise.

Okay, fair enough. Let's settle this like men. Out behind the bike-racks at recess; speedlights at 10 paces!

As I said earlier, it really is a case of "what works for you". You've done some great work and if bouncing gives you that, bonus. Me? Either I lack the skill, or it bounce just doesn't have the appeal if there are other options.

 

[kundalini]

I think Schwetty is cycling this week.

 

[Village Idiot]

^^^ what he said. Also remember that bouncing spreads light around, which "dilutes" it. So in small rooms, the light gets reflected back, in large rooms, not so much.

On camera flash isn't as good as off-camera, but you really can do a lot with it.

Try putting your back near a corner and bouncing off the corner at your back Also try various bounces with a bounce card, either built-in if your flash has one, or rubber band a 3x5 card to the flash unit. It adds just a touch of fill flash and bumps the catch lights.

Good luck and enjoy!

I completely disagree as well. It totally depends on the situation. An OCF setup is generally not as ideal as a bounced flash if you're shooting events where you're constantly on the move.

When you bounce your flash, you actually already made your flash off the camera AND you made the light source really big (the size of whatever the projection of the flash on the ceiling or wall) and diffused. Adding bounce card to your flash will only add direct light which is what you are trying to avoid. Pretty much if you can bounce it, bounce everything. Don't use a bounce card.

Now, if you put the flash off the camera, all you are doing is putting the light source from an angle (which can already be accomplished with bounced on camera flash). Your flash is still harsh. Sure, you can add umbrella or softbox but then bouncing on camera is a lot easier because you can use your TTL, you can do 2nd curtain, you can do HSS/FP, which a lot of trigger wont do.

The only advantage of off camera flash is when you cant really bounce (i.e. outdoor, dark wall/ceiling), or when you are trying to be creative with multiple flash guns. You also get more consistent result because when you bounce, the flash metering is doing it's own thing and you dont get consistent result (plus your bounce change all time). I hope that makes sense.

Lern2flashBro!

Being able to angle your light isn't the only advantage. Being able to position your lighting and sculpt it to your needs is more like it. And I don't know what mystical camera you're using, but when my flashes are off camera, their setting aren't changing based on what I'm metering and my camera settings are set exactly as I need them, so I'm pretty sure those results are going to be a lot more accurate than having the camera change my flash settings for me.

 

[Village Idiot]

^^^ what he said. Also remember that bouncing spreads light around, which "dilutes" it. So in small rooms, the light gets reflected back, in large rooms, not so much.

On camera flash isn't as good as off-camera, but you really can do a lot with it.

Try putting your back near a corner and bouncing off the corner at your back Also try various bounces with a bounce card, either built-in if your flash has one, or rubber band a 3x5 card to the flash unit. It adds just a touch of fill flash and bumps the catch lights.

Good luck and enjoy!

really though John, assuming i have good place to bounce my light, I will always pick bounce flash over off camera flash. Doesn't matter what modifier you use. I could make my light source a lot bigger than your umbrella/softbox. If all the walls are colorful or dark... then I think otherwise.

You can't get hard light with a bounced flash and on axis hard light is often times not ideal as a main light source.

 

[CowgirlMama]

Wow. This is what I get for going to work and church instead of sitting online! I used a bounce card (well, card stock rubber banded on ) for some pictures. I think I used it for the first shot that I posted, but can't remember for sure at this point. I know it was needed to light his face in a lot of the shots because his eyes are so deep-set. This is actually the first time I've actually gotten a shot that showed his eyes and we've had him for a year. Shih tzus are hard because of the shape of their faces. His nose makes a shadow with direct flash.

^^^ what he said. Also remember that bouncing spreads light around, which "dilutes" it. So in small rooms, the light gets reflected back, in large rooms, not so much.

On camera flash isn't as good as off-camera, but you really can do a lot with it.

Try putting your back near a corner and bouncing off the corner at your back Also try various bounces with a bounce card, either built-in if your flash has one, or rubber band a 3x5 card to the flash unit. It adds just a touch of fill flash and bumps the catch lights.

Good luck and enjoy!

I hadn't thought about that, but it makes sense. I was working in my living room, so not a huge space. I wasn't able to bounce at work today in the big, open space. (I work at a preschool, so I can't post anything to show you. )

I'll definitely try to get into a corner to test bouncing off the corner tonight. I'll just bribe an animal with treats, since I know my two year old won't stay still long enough. I like the results I've gotten with my homemade bounce card so far, so I'll definitely keep playing with it.

My dad has some other flash units that I can borrow. Next weekend, he said he'd help me set up a mini-studio space with several flashes to experiment and play with the light. I'm so looking forward to it! I might post some of the pictures I get after that. I really want to figure out how to use flash so that I'm not completely limited to natural light. I mean, it's good to know how to use what you have, but sometimes, it just isn't enough.

KMH, thanks for the link and books. Definitely going to look into getting at least one and read through the link. I will figure this out! I don't get nearly enough time to practice right now. *sigh* Summer will be better.

 

[Robin Usagani]

Lern2flashBro!

Being able to angle your light isn't the only advantage. Being able to position your lighting and sculpt it to your needs is more like it. And I don't know what mystical camera you're using, but when my flashes are off camera, their setting aren't changing based on what I'm metering and my camera settings are set exactly as I need them, so I'm pretty sure those results are going to be a lot more accurate than having the camera change my flash settings for me.

I am . I am just making a point of bounced on camera flash VS. off camera flash with no modifier. I take bounced on camera flash any day. My comment was really directed to WhiskeyTango. I have seen too many times where people jump too fast. They still dont know how to do bounced flash (which I still think the most important thing to learn), and the next thing you know they are shooting with 2-3 off camera flash producing mediocre result. To be honest, I am still doing 1 of camera flash and sometimes 2 since my main focus is wedding photography. I am just really passionate when it comes to bounced flash. I can talk about it all day.

 

[Dao]

If the situation allow me to bounce the light, I will. If I need to bounce the light off the ceiling, I usually rubber band a little white card or just use a credit card or supermarket receipt (my flash do not have a build in bounce card) to add some forwarding light. Sometimes I use bubble wrap. But that sometimes draw too much attention. So I don't use it that often now.

The forwarding light help to fill some shadow as well as creating a little catch light on the subject eyes. (Little, not much)