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Getting frustrated with Nikon ... so, what about Canon, then?

If you are a pro, and bought a D3, trust me, you are NOT complaining... if you are, and you did... well "you ain't all that and a bag 'o potatoe chips". ;)

If you do not complain then you admit perfection - then you have no reason to upgrade your camera again. Gotta at least whimper about more meghapizzels...
 
OK, I finally took a trip into the city and came up with this conclusion:

D40 + 70-200/2.8 VR: Autofocus itself is faster, but still has the initiation lag.
D40 + 60mm f/2.8 Macro: Same as 70-200.

D300 + 55-200 VR:
AF itself is no faster than it is on my D40 (no surprise there), but D300 still has a noticeable initiation lag, even using the center AF point in manual AF point selection.

D300 + 16-85: Same lag as with 55-200 (but AF itself is faster, obviously)

D3 + 24-70/2.8: No lag. Anywhere. Whatsoever. Easily as fast or faster than any Canon I've used (I haven't used a 5D or 1D). As I recall, the D700 has the same AF system as the D3, so it should be the same.


So, it seems that you need to have a top-of-the-line, full-frame Nikon body and lens pair to match the AF speed of a mid-range Canon (40D) with a mid-range lens (17-80). But, then, no Nikon requires you to dick around through menus to change frequently-used shooting settings (though, perhaps, that may be compensated by the 3 custom-settings of the 40D)

You can disagree with me if you want, I really don't care. This conclusion is based on my personal, first-hand testing. Maybe I'm just too picky... yeah, I probably am ;)
 
So, it seems that you need to have a top-of-the-line, full-frame Nikon body and lens pair to match the AF speed of a mid-range Canon (40D) with a mid-range lens (17-80). But, then, no Nikon requires you to dick around through menus to change frequently-used shooting settings (though, perhaps, that may be compensated by the 3 custom-settings of the 40D)

You can disagree with me if you want, I really don't care. This conclusion is based on my personal, first-hand testing. Maybe I'm just too picky... yeah, I probably am ;)

hilarious.
new nikon issue. focus lag. you heard it here first.
i'm glad my nikons don't lag. sounds like a terrible issue to have.
 
So, it seems that you need to have a top-of-the-line, full-frame Nikon body and lens pair to match the AF speed of a mid-range Canon (40D) with a mid-range lens (17-80). But, then, no Nikon requires you to dick around through menus to change frequently-used shooting settings (though, perhaps, that may be compensated by the 3 custom-settings of the 40D)

You can disagree with me if you want, I really don't care. This conclusion is based on my personal, first-hand testing. Maybe I'm just too picky... yeah, I probably am ;)

So wait, you reach your conclusion by:

1) Pairing a crap body with a pro lens and getting crap
2) Pairing a nice body with a crap lens (D300 w/55-200) and getting crap
3) Pairing a pro body with a pro lens and getting awesomeness

Maybe if you tried a D300 with a 70-200 or 24-70? What about trying a D700? I mean, keep in mind what your original needs were again: you want to do sports photography, and that requires expensive equipment for fast AF. What did you expect?! :lmao:

edit: oh yeah, before I forget (again), stop leaning on AF. Professional photographers were photographing sports before autofocus. Anticipate the shot, pre-focus, and you'll get better photos with manual focus nonetheless. And if it's not sports you're trying to do... then REALLY lay off the autofocus.
 
Yeh, not sure about this initiation lag you speak of, but I don't think it should be a problem for a sports shooter....When you shoot sports you usually track the subjects in your viewfinder, and not pulling the camera right up to your face and snapping one off right away....Learn to anticipate action and your won't have to worry about "initiation lag"
 
D3 + 24-70/2.8: No lag. Anywhere. Whatsoever. Easily as fast or faster than any Canon I've used (I haven't used a 5D or 1D). As I recall, the D700 has the same AF system as the D3, so it should be the same.

There are minor differences between a D3 and a D700 A/F system. We're talking very small fractions of a second difference in terms of acquisition but it is enough to be noticeable in real world useage where a full time D3 user could tell the difference when using a D700. A D700 user would be hard pressed to tell the differences, at least at first.

That coming from a wedding photographer that uses a D3 with a D700 as backup. It would not surprise me... there has to be something different for the several thousand dollar higher price tag.

I am a D700 owner, and in all honestly, I have NO idea what they are talking about when it comes to "lag". I press the shutter, lens focus and locks in, and I shoot. If I want to remove that time between the lens focuses, I prefocus using the A/F button with my thumb on the back of the camera. When I press the shutter button, it snaps immediately.
 
Epp,
I am glad you actually went to a store and triedout some equipment, but I have to hand it to Blash who noted that your results could be characterized as
"1) Pairing a crap body with a pro lens and getting crap
2) Pairing a nice body with a crap lens (D300 w/55-200) and getting crap
3) Pairing a pro body with a pro lens and getting awesomeness"

Expanding a bit on Jerry's post right above mine, noted Nikon expert Thom Hogan's D700 review Nikon D700 Review by Thom Hogan

noted the following differences between the D3 and D700:"note that when you're in non-white light--some fluorescent and sodium vapor, for example--this system seems to not work anywhere near as well, probably because the color tint from the lighting is polluting the skin tones the camera is trying to detect. On the D700, recognition of the colors of an object is clearly taken into account in Auto Area focus mode and somehow dealt with even when that object goes out of the autofocus sensor area! The question everyone wants to know is whether the D700 is closer to the D300 or the D3 autofocus system. For those not yet in the know, the D300 autofocus system uses a slightly less beefy CPU and tends to have a bigger hesitation prior to locking in initial focus than does the D3. The answer is that the D700 seems much more like the D3 than the D300, though it clearly seems to be between them in performance. My D3 snaps into initial autofocus faster than my D700, which does so faster than my D300. In terms of following subjects, the D700 and D3 seem to be equal there, with the D300 being very slightly less capable. With practice, all three cameras have perfectly fine autofocus. But if you move between the cameras, as I do, be prepared for slightly different initial acquisition speeds. Once an object is tracked, the D700 and D3 are uncanny in following it, the D300 slightly less so (but still arguably very good)."

I'm wondering if the camera store had fluorescent lighting that might have slowed down the color-sensing abilities of the cameras you tried.

I'll tell you a little story,based on my personal experience. I shoot both Nikon and Canon systems, and have a FEW good Canon lenses. The Canon 20D with the 70-200 2.8 L IS or the 85 1.8 50 1.4 or 135 f/2 L can not focus fast enough or well enough for sports like track and field,using those lenses, but the "old" Nikon D1h and the "old" Nikon D2x have very good AF systems that are quite capable for sports use. Initial acquisition speed seems to be your complaint with Nikon....understood....but the real need is more often the ability to follow focus on a moving target and to focus on off-center targets. If you want to talk about the superiority of Canon's autofocus, look at the absolutely horrible AF problems Canon's 1D Mark III has had, for over two years now at Rob Galbraith DPI: An analysis of EOS-1D Mark III autofocus performance

Make sure you download some of the zip files, and see how poorly Canons "sports/action/photojournalism" camera focuses using a pro-grade sports lens like the 300 f/2.8 Canon EF. The camera has EXCELLENT initial acquisition speed and excellent intitial acquisition acuracy on the FIRST shot--but most bodies can NOT FOCUS on sequential action,and the problem seems to be worse under bright,contrasty light. For a FEW sports, like volleyball, speed/accuracy of initial focus acquistion is critical, but for sports like track and field,football,swimming,cycling, the ability to follow focus is much more critical than being able to get one shot in focus, and then have 70 percent of the sequence out of focus.

Download the 1D Mark III zip files,and see how very,very badly that Canon does on sports shooting. It even has problems focusing on STILL subjects! I laughed a bit at the shot of the dog jumping over the bar at the agility drill as being an example of how a Canon 5D can shoot "sport". I own a 5D and it is a very slow-reacting camera in all respects, but one can get used to its very long shutter release lag times and its weak AF system. A single shot at a pre-determined place, like a dog jumping over a red and white bar is not proof of a camera's suitability for shooting sports....I could nail that shot with a manual focus Nikon F2...a sports camera has fast response time,and short mirror black out time and a high FPS rate. A single, pre-focused shot of action happening at one,specific,exact distance proves absolutely nothing. A camera that can focus on a pole vaulter running toward you,pulling accurate focus at 5 to 8 frames per second, from the start, down the runway,at the plant of the pole,as the pole launches the runner upward, and as the vaulter clears the bar,and then pushes the pole away from the bar as he clears it....24 to 30 good frames....THAT is a camera that can "shoot sport",and that is the kind of AF performance you can get with a Nikon D2 series body. ANY camera can catch peak action of a dog hopping over a red and white bar--just prefocus and wait and know your camera's lag time.

As far as speed of acquisition, it's good to be fast on the draw, but it's much,much more important to hit the target accurately. Epp's original post almost sounds like he doesn't know much about autofocusing systems,or about Nikon cameras, and his Nikon equipment listed in his profile is all beginner-level stuff. Perhaps if he had some experience with top level Nikon bodies and lenses, and some experience shooting sports on assignment (like I do), his conclusions would be different. A wedding photographer's impression of AF speed is different from a sports shooter's; at a wedding the bride and groom come down the isle at a slow,measured pace; in the 100 and 200 meters, the athletes are moving approximately 25-30 times faster than a bride and groom walking down an isle in a church. A runner heading for first base is moving very,very rapidly, and those are the types of situations where the professional lenses like the 70-200VR, 200 f/2 VR, and 300 f/2.8 ALL focus amply fast enough for frame after frame after frame of correctly-focused shots, even using an old clunker like a Nkon D1h or a now-$950 used Nikon D2x. But not with your 18-55 kit lens or your 55-200 kit zoom.

But to say that for example the Canon 20D's AF system is adequate for sports....it's marginal, even with the 70-200 2.8 or 135/2 L....it's a very simple AF system that is too slow at acquisition and too slow at follow focus for track and field,and the off-center AF coverage of Canon's diamond array bodies is extremely poor for focusing off-center; this is an area where Nikon handily beats Canon at the low and mid-level bodies. I grew up shooting in the era prior to AF, when a 55mm f/5.6 lens or a 145mm f/5.6 would have been absolutely laughed at--those lenses admit the absolute *minimum* for good AF performance. What's sad is that Canon had an amazing AF system in their 1D Mark II and Mark IIn, but they futzed up the AF system in the Mark III very badly.
 
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Nice post, Darrel, thanks for the helpful information. I would agree that tracking ability is certainly more important, but it would be nice to have fast initiation as well would be nice for those few times where it is very important ;)

So wait, you reach your conclusion by:

1) Pairing a crap body with a pro lens and getting crap
2) Pairing a nice body with a crap lens (D300 w/55-200) and getting crap
3) Pairing a pro body with a pro lens and getting awesomeness
Maybe you didn't read all the way through my most. I also tried a 16-85 on the D300. Canon's direct competitor is the 40D/50D with the 17-85 and the AF initiation and action is noticeably faster on the Canon.

I am a D700 owner, and in all honestly, I have NO idea what they are talking about when it comes to "lag".
I have no argument with you, there. As the D700 is one of Nikon's top-of-the-line bodies, I would expect this type of performance.
 
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The Nikon 16-85 is an f/3.5~5.6 lens. An 85mm lens that has a maximum aperture of f/5.6 is a dog-slow lens. F/5.6 is the absolute minimum aperture that Nikon guarantees will allow autofocusing. Phase detection AF systems work by determining in-focus and out-of focus. The shallower the depth of field a lens has, the more easily a phase detection AF system can determine "in" from "out". No offense intended to anybody who has a 16-85, but it is a "consumer lens" on a good body. Anybody who tries to get subject/background isolation with an 85mm lens set to f/5.6 on a DX format camera knows that the depth of field is actually quite deep,and there is no subject/background isolation. That small aperture and deep depth of field means that focusing must be optimized for ACCURACY at the expense of speed--if the photos are to be in-focus consistently. The 16-85 is still a "consumer" lens. 85mm and f/5.6? Ridiculous for serious use, but small,light,and affordable for consumers.

Secondarily, speed of focusing is one thing; accuracy of focusing is another. A lens that focuses very rapidly,and has a very short focusing radius is prone to focusing errors. Your trying a 60mm macro lens for focusing speed is an example of using a lens designed for very precise close-range focusing, not for speedy focusing,and is a simply ridiculous test of AF speed. There is a fine line between absolute speed of focusing, the degrees of travel of the focusing mechanism, and the specific lens in question. You can have a faster focusing lens, but that usually comes at the expense of focusing accuracy.

Canon invented AF microadjust because so MANY of its lenses had back- and front-focusing problems,and their QC seems to produce a lot of bodies and or lenses that need to be adjusted to get the focusing right. On a lens like the Nikon 16-85, that is a 5.3x zoom ratio, and the lens has a slow maximum aperture, plus short focal lengths, so the image magnification is low throughout most of the range, and the AF system only works down to f/5.6,so this lens is a borderline lens for serious usage.

You can have a lens that focuses more-rapidly, or you can have one that focuses more-accurately and more-repeatably. On a wide-range wide-to-telephoto zoom like 16-85 or 17-85,with a slow maximum aperture, the AF system can not be optimized nearly as well as on a tele-zoom, or on a lens with a more normal 3x ratio. If you want focusing speed, that's great, but my experience with Canon is that focusing ACCURACY is rather hit-and-miss with Canon's slower speed optics like their 18-55 kit lens. Go back a few years, and search for Canon focusing threads....boatloads of problems with erroneous focusing. In-store feelings of speed of focus are great for camera sales, but what counts are real-world pictures.

If you do not "get" that a 16-85mm f/3.5~5.6 is a consumer lens, I cannot help you. The D300 is optimized for professional and serious amateur use. It's great to have a camera that feels fast on the focusing, but look at the 1D Mark III focusing debacle,and look at the rather crude, tight diamond pattern AF system Canon has in its 20-30-40-50D-5D-5D-II lineup...it's a very simple AF system that is heavily center-weighted and geared toward pointing and shooting with the AF area always in the middle of the frame.

Again, a D300 with a 16-85 f/3.5~5.6 lens, which also has VR,is pairing a semi-professional body with a pokey, wide-ratio,slow, consumer zoom lens. The question I would ask is---did you actually take any photos, or just go by subjective feel and by sound? If you want to compare pro lens to pro lens, look at the Canon 85/1.2 L versus the Nikkor 85mm 1.4 AF-D. The Canon is USM, the Nikon is screwdriver, and yet, the Nikon focuses three times faster than the Canon does. The speed of one or two lenses can be somewhat deceptive. Frankly, I could care less how well a semi-pro camera focuses cheap lenses like the 55-200 or 16-85, since I will never use such dog-slow lenses.

Why not research the Nikkor 17-55 f/2.8 DX and the exactly comparable Canon 17-55, and start comparing the mid-priced lenses on the semi-pro bodies? Or try the Canon 85 1.2L versus the Nikkor 85/1.4. You'll soon find the tables reversed, with Canon focusing much more-slowly, due to different optimization priority assigned to the mid- and pro-level lenses.

Or try comparing a 135 f/2 AF-D Nikkor with the Canon 135/2 L. I have both lenses. Both focus about as rapidly as the other on mid-level bodies,and the optical quality is about the same,with a slight edge going to the Nikkor.

I actually find your initial post somewhat dubious, based largely on cheap bodies and cheap lenses, and lacking any references to actual real-world picture-taking experiences where speed and accuracy of autofocus are factors. I think my participation in this thread has come to an end. Your entire Canon-is-always-faster-than-Nikon premise just doesn't jibe with my equipment, both Canon and Nikon,and it almost seems like you're a paid shill or something to make such a silly blanket statement that you have "never" found a Nikon that can focus more-quickly than any Canon. I find that very,very hard to believe, but then I have a lot more experience than you do.
 
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There are minor differences between a D3 and a D700 A/F system. We're talking very small fractions of a second difference in terms of acquisition but it is enough to be noticeable in real world useage where a full time D3 user could tell the difference when using a D700. A D700 user would be hard pressed to tell the differences, at least at first.
I did some digging regarding this topic and it turns out that the D700 and D3 use the exact same Multi-CAM 3500FX AF sensor. Everything I can find indicates they are absolutely identical. If there is a difference, it has to be in the processing outside of the AF system itself I'm guessing.
 
I gotta wonder what you people are shooting that the AF on ANY of your camera bodies is so slow you are CONSISTENTLY missing shots. I can count on both hands the number of times I've missed a shot because my camera/lens was slow to find focus and that is usually because I've been caught unawares. If you KNOW how your system works, and how it initiates and resolves focus - you will find your keepers increasing.

But then when one wants to go out and spend money on something new, it usually doesn't take much to come up with an excuse to do so.
 
This is interesting... I wonder if anyone has done any actual time comparisons with lenses to see if Canon focuses faster.

I have the D300 and D100 and have never felt like I missed a shot due to slow focus on either AF-S or AF lenses. >shrug<
 
My only personal head-to-head comparison was a Nikon D80 with 50mm f/1.4D and AF-S 18-105mm f/3.5-5.6G versus a Canon EOS 40D with EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM. The EOS 40D + 17-55 combination was noticeably faster to focus. Once focused, I got good shots with both cameras.
 
I hope you get Canon tomorrow. Please stop bitching. I hate nothing more than to hear people complain on here just to complain...and keep complaining. Just get into Canon

If you're wanting to get serious about this whole photography deal, then $1,500 is absolutely NOTHING compared to what you're going to END up spending.

Go with Canon and as said before, put this thread and your indecisiveness out of our misery.

~Michael~
 

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