Help a newbie with big dreams to find the proper equipment

[flyingPhoto]

First off all digital cameras have methods to control Exposure Value... there is the meter bar option, when in manual mode you can see how the light swings when you control the shutter and aperture.

THEN you have the option of opening a manual and changing the EV for the metering system itself to the way you want it.. That may not always work based upon how light the scene is..

WIth the enforced prevalence of photo editing, its somewhat hard to say a "budget lens" wont get you a great photo as every image you see on the fuji, nikon, canon, pentax, sony websites have ALL been given photo editing before slapping onto their websites...

And every time a new generation of lens comes out, the old version is instantly considered trash, ****, crap, worthless. A lens made in 1999 with the then latest generation of optical glass and coatings is still a fine lens to be using. MANY of the members here and on photrio have 3-7,000$ camera bodies that have 40 to 50 year old lenses slapped on.

Its asinine to consider the wide angle lenses as an important part of any particular style of photography. It just isnt... even for landscape, all you need to consider is the angle of view on a lens.. a 50mm is fine as long as you can get far enough away from it. Actually the problem with a 50mm lens is getting CLOSE enough to a subject to fill the frame.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

By now you should have figured out it is not the camera or the lens. It is the user.

As a newbie why limit your equipment to some field of photography you may lose interest in?

A decent entry level Nikon, Canon or such, is more camera than you need starting out, for the simple reason that until you have to develop the skill level to understand its limitations, or you are only guessing what you need next. (Often a costly mistake.)

Look at the masters, past and present and you will often find, it is the finished result they were seeing, not the picture they we taking. The camera was used to grasp as much of the vision as possible but the Darkroom and now Post Processing is where their visions evolved.

Skill overcomes equipment every time and skill comes with understanding your gear, not necessarily by buying more.

Good Luck it is a fun and sometime challenging hobby.

 

[ntz]

By now you should have figured out it is not the camera or the lens. It is the user.

As a newbie why limit your equipment to some field of photography you may lose interest in?

A decent entry level Nikon, Canon or such, is more camera than you need starting out, for the simple reason that until you have to develop the skill level to understand its limitations, or you are only guessing what you need next. (Often a costly mistake.)

Look at the masters, past and present and you will often find, it is the finished result they were seeing, not the picture they we taking. The camera was used to grasp as much of the vision as possible but the Darkroom and now Post Processing is where their visions evolved.

Skill overcomes equipment every time and skill comes with understanding your gear, not necessarily by buying more.

Good Luck it is a fun and sometime challenging hobby.

My dear grandpa Ron, I consider this as toxic advise because buying entry level camera + associated lens (like for example used D3400 + some lens) won't be very helpful while you realize soon later, that you had to buy a FX mirrorless for example (or generally completely different camera)

Entry level cameras are in general (good) for people who want a camera, not for people who want to become photographers (and making theirs big dreams to become real - see topic) ..

We still don't know the budget of the gentleman who asked the question - then I suggest to carefully min-maxing its potential ..

Another example - I am from tennis family, I've used to be a (semi-)pro player, my wife too, my father is tennis trainer, I sometimes train too. When somebody comes and tell me that he/she would like to play tennis and ask which tennis rocket they should buy I always tell them, if you wanna play really tennis, buy an advanced/pro rocket ... those "entry level" enthusiast/beginner level rockets are *junk* and you're not going to become a tennis player with them ... maximally you will realize in 10 lessons, that you would like to try to play with normal rocket (those marked advanced/pro)

 

[Grandpa Ron]

ntz

That is a rather interesting viewpoint but I would not consider my entry level $400.00 Canon Rebel a piece of junk by any stretch of the imagination. They put that manual setting on there of a reason.

I have coupled it to my telescope for some astro-photography, I have done some interesting low light work, moon-glow photography, a few rodeo action shots, and a large number of Black and White shots and I even used the body for some pinhole photos.

Yes, that standard 18 mm to 55 mm plastic lens has it limits, and I have used it enough reach some of those limits. I have also adapted my old film camera lenses to extend those limits. Of course at times, a better lens is needed and since I like low light and night sky shots I did acquire an 11 mm to 20 mm f 2.8. All of this is fine for the type of photographic experimenting I like to do.

My biggest disappointment came when I restored a 4x5 view camera and purchased Ansel Adam's book trilogy, that plus joining the local camera club; showed me the real magic to great photographic art work is in the darkroom or the computer. I marvel at the results but the camera, lens and tripod are the paints, brushes and canvases; the end result come from the artist head.

So my advise stands to the newbie. Buy a good entry level camera, learns to use it; then you will know what you need and why.

 

[ntz]

ntz

That is a rather interesting viewpoint but I would not consider my entry level $400.00 Canon Rebel a piece of junk by any stretch of the imagination. They put that manual setting on there of a reason.

I have coupled it to my telescope for some astro-photography, I have done some interesting low light work, moon-glow photography, a few rodeo action shots, and a large number of Black and White shots and I even used the body for some pinhole photos.

Yes, that standard 18 mm to 55 mm plastic lens has it limits, and I have used it enough reach some of those limits. I have also adapted my old film camera lenses to extend those limits. Of course at times, a better lens is needed and since I like low light and night sky shots I did acquire an 11 mm to 20 mm f 2.8. All of this is fine for the type of photographic experimenting I like to do.

My biggest disappointment came when I restored a 4x5 view camera and purchased Ansel Adam's book trilogy, that plus joining the local camera club; showed me the real magic to great photographic art work is in the darkroom or the computer. I marvel at the results but the camera, lens and tripod are the paints, brushes and canvases; the end result come from the artist head.

So my advise stands to the newbie. Buy a good entry level camera, learns to use it; then you will know what you need and why.

I didn't want to imply that some cameras are junk whilst other not .. I was only implying that everybody should carefully pick the right tool for themselves ... You are certainly right in that the *current* gear is all so good that the differences are so subtle, still I am saying that the camera decision is very important and shall be made upon the thorough analysis of available options not just **bah, take some entry level of Nikon or Canon cuz' you're a newbie and newbies should .....** I don't like this all logic and classification of the skill ...

 

[Rickbb]

We all realize the OP only posted once a week ago and hasn’t been back since, right?

 

[flyingPhoto]

We all realize the OP only posted once a week ago and hasn’t been back since, right?

That doesnt matter. We are enjoying a good healthy bash of what constitutes good equipment..

Seriously is good to hash it out and mock those who feel that the ability to arrange a scene, and make it work in the camera is LESS important then the ability to load resulting images into photo shop and make the image what ever they want it to be.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

I do not think one could ever say that properly capturing the scene in the camera is less important today than in the past, because it is the foundation upon which the post processing is built.

The discussion over "as shot" vs. post processing has been debated ad nauseam, but this is of little value to the neophyte.

When starting out, learning the basics of composition, the demands of various types of shooting environment and discovering what your camera will and won't do are challenging enough. I believe this is what make photography interesting.

 

[learningtogrow]

Since you didn't specify a platform, all the smartest and best-looking photographers use Nikon.

And just what is it that makes a camera/lens "professional" to you? To some, simply being able to swap lenses makes a camera a professional model. But I was at a wedding on Saturday and the hired photographer was using a D3400 which is on the "lower end" of Nikon's lineup. The skill of the photographer will have a much bigger impact on the final result than the camera being used.

Those are two very different (and possibly three) "types" of photography. To me, landscapes and nature are different. You need wide angles for landscapes but long lenses for most nature shots. And a macro lens for the up-close bug shots. I don't have an opinion on the others but, for nature shots, the Nikon 70-200 f/2.8 is a fantastic lens.

Consider buying something used, Craigslist-eBay-estate sales-etc.

 

[learningtogrow]

Thanks a lot for all your answers, guys. I truly appreciate them.
Also, I appreciate your patience in my response. I had an accident and I was in the hospital for a while. Fixed and working like new.

Several of you remarked on the importance of studying. I totally agree with you. I’m also aware that you don’t need great gear to take good photos, but, since I like to photograph insects, the quality doesn’t hurt. It will be like an investment and a good excuse to learn.

I will probably go with a Nikon Z* mirrorless (will see if I buy it new or used).
Also, I’m going to put in my list of desires (for future purchases) the following lenses:
* Nikon 24-70mm f/4
* Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8

In relation to the macros, for tiny insects, is there any brand and lens in particular? I really want to make an effort and put money into this lens since I love to go to the park and take photos of small insects. Advice will be much appreciated.

Thanks -again- for all your answers and contributions. Have a great start of week.

 

[ac12]

Thanks a lot for all your answers, guys. I truly appreciate them.
Also, I appreciate your patience in my response. I had an accident and I was in the hospital for a while. Fixed and working like new.

Several of you remarked on the importance of studying. I totally agree with you. I’m also aware that you don’t need great gear to take good photos, but, since I like to photograph insects, the quality doesn’t hurt. It will be like an investment and a good excuse to learn.

I will probably go with a Nikon Z* mirrorless (will see if I buy it new or used).
Also, I’m going to put in my list of desires (for future purchases) the following lenses:
* Nikon 24-70mm f/4
* Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8

In relation to the macros, for tiny insects, is there any brand and lens in particular? I really want to make an effort and put money into this lens since I love to go to the park and take photos of small insects. Advice will be much appreciated.

Thanks -again- for all your answers and contributions. Have a great start of week.

At present, I do not know of any third party lens with a Z mount, for the Nikon Z camera.
I presume Tamron and Sigma are working on them, but no word, so far.
So you have to buy a Tamron 70-200/2.8 lens with a Nikon F mount, and adapt it to the Z camera with a FTZ adapter.

 

[ntz]

Thanks a lot for all your answers, guys. I truly appreciate them.
Also, I appreciate your patience in my response. I had an accident and I was in the hospital for a while. Fixed and working like new.

Several of you remarked on the importance of studying. I totally agree with you. I’m also aware that you don’t need great gear to take good photos, but, since I like to photograph insects, the quality doesn’t hurt. It will be like an investment and a good excuse to learn.

I will probably go with a Nikon Z* mirrorless (will see if I buy it new or used).
Also, I’m going to put in my list of desires (for future purchases) the following lenses:
* Nikon 24-70mm f/4
* Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8

In relation to the macros, for tiny insects, is there any brand and lens in particular? I really want to make an effort and put money into this lens since I love to go to the park and take photos of small insects. Advice will be much appreciated.

Thanks -again- for all your answers and contributions. Have a great start of week.

FTZ is qualitywise loseless

 

[RacePhoto]

Since this has gone into two parallel concepts, let me say I have owned some really nice guitars, I actually owned a Barney Kessel custom, deep body, for 30 years, and guess what? I still sound like crap on the guitar. I have a nice Ovation acoustic/electric and a nylon string ? classical style, and they are perfect for my skill level. I don't need a $8,000 guitar and it doesn't make any sense.

I sold some classic drums, which I do know how to play and did for 50 years, to get a Canon 40-D new when they came out. Just right, I really enjoyed that camera. I sold the Barney Kessel to buy a 70-200 IS USM f/2.8 - music turned into top level photography equipment.

So, off to cameras. The best camera will not make someone any better than their inner skills, experience or knowledge. BUT... for someone who knows what they are doing, an inferior camera will diminish their final products and images. What I mean is, in the hands of someone skilled, a better camera will make better images. Tools don't make a craftsman, but the proper tools make a true crafts-person better at making what they do create.

Don't believe that you have to shoot with this brand or that brand or you aren't part of the club of some sort. Times have changed and it's not Nikon or Canon anymore. Sony (who has made the sensors for Nikon and Canon) has their own designs and some very affordable, professional, wonderful cameras. Fuji has a BSI stacked sensor coming. The Nikon Z9 stacked CMOS, mirrorless, 45MP sensor. Don't doubt the future, Canon doesn't exist in a vacuum, they will have some new sensor and features to compete.

Pick what you can afford that matches what you shoot. That simple. And something I consider a law of photography which might be just a very serious guideline, it's more important to have a good lens or superior lens than a big expensive camera with the newest wiz-bang features and the biggest sensor on the market. Lenses last for ages, and camera bodies change and evolve almost every year.

Buy prime lenses that match what you shoot, and after you have gone through years of cameras, the lenses will still be state of the art and the camera bodies will either be worn out, broken or replaced by something new. Which means for myself, since I've been with Canon since the 60s, I but Canon L lenses. An entry level lens is a waste of money and will do nothing but frustrate your efforts to grow and make better and better photos.

Boiled down, for my opinion of what someone should do, if they are getting more serious and want to upgrade to better equipment to continue to grow and they don't have an unlimited budget.

1) Get a recent prosumer model camera used. Find something clean without a lot of use and shutter actuation's. You don't need the latest greatest. If possible find a modern design, like mirrorless, which is the future mount style and the lenses will be useful and compatible for years and years. Lucky for us, some of the newer models have fully compatible, full feature, adapters.

2) Buy the best lenses you can afford for what you will be shooting and prime lens(es) for your main interest.

3) Never stop learning and continue to improve, step by step, one day at a time. Try new things, experiment and take notes. Make notes for ideas you want to shoot, places you want to go, and record places you have been. Take notes on settings and lighting. Some day you'll want them for reference to see what you did and how, or some day, for an idea you had, that you need a reminder.

4) Enjoy and have fun. If you don't enjoy what you are doing, why are you doing it?

 

[ntz]

Since this has gone into two parallel concepts, let me say I have owned some really nice guitars, I actually owned a Barney Kessel custom, deep body, for 30 years, and guess what? I still sound like crap on the guitar. I have a nice Ovation acoustic/electric and a nylon string ? classical style, and they are perfect for my skill level. I don't need a $8,000 guitar and it doesn't make any sense.

I sold some classic drums, which I do know how to play and did for 50 years, to get a Canon 40-D new when they came out. Just right, I really enjoyed that camera. I sold the Barney Kessel to buy a 70-200 IS USM f/2.8 - music turned into top level photography equipment.

musical instruments are different league ... I was buying recently a classical Gibson Les Paul from 90s, you're not going to buy camera body or even lenses from 90s ..

Don't believe that you have to shoot with this brand or that brand or you aren't part of the club of some sort. Times have changed and it's not Nikon or Canon anymore. Sony (who has made the sensors for Nikon and Canon) has their own designs and some very affordable, professional, wonderful cameras. Fuji has a BSI stacked sensor coming. The Nikon Z9 stacked CMOS, mirrorless, 45MP sensor. Don't doubt the future, Canon doesn't exist in a vacuum, they will have some new sensor and features to compete.

I went into the impression that we have already a mutual agreement, that all the smartest and best-looking photographers use Nikon .. haha

Pick what you can afford that matches what you shoot. That simple. And something I consider a law of photography which might be just a very serious guideline, it's more important to have a good lens or superior lens than a big expensive camera with the newest wiz-bang features and the biggest sensor on the market. Lenses last for ages, and camera bodies change and evolve almost every year.

Lenses don't last ages, especially now when the chips are evolving this fast ... this is sad to say .. they (lenses) will likely last longer than bodies but not like what you say ... if you wanna keep on edge, it will be costly ...

Buy prime lenses that match what you shoot, and after you have gone through years of cameras, the lenses will still be state of the art and the camera bodies will either be worn out, broken or replaced by something new. Which means for myself, since I've been with Canon since the 60s, I but Canon L lenses. An entry level lens is a waste of money and will do nothing but frustrate your efforts to grow and make better and better photos.

It's very subjective .. for my photography I don't want/need prime lenses at all .. And also it's disputable if prime lenses will give you edge over the zoom lenses now when the technology improved so much .. Zoom lenses now are same or better than previous generation prime lenses .. For example Nikon Z zooms are now so good and much better than all Nikon-F primes and also the camera chips are not *capable* to use the potential of even zoom lenses so the only thing where prime can compete is price ... and now we're returning back to the beginning, do you need a fixed focal length prime for $100 when you can have for $200 bunch of "primes" in one zoom package ..

If you're really starting with photography I recommend to just with kit lens and find out with them where your future grow path leads

1) Get a recent prosumer model camera used. Find something clean without a lot of use and shutter actuation's. You don't need the latest greatest. If possible find a modern design, like mirrorless, which is the future mount style and the lenses will be useful and compatible for years and years. Lucky for us, some of the newer models have fully compatible, full feature, adapters.

I agree with this .. depends on budget here ... If you wanna go for mirrorless there are relatively cheap deals like this (which is awesome pack for good price with 16-50+50-250 covered for $1200) .. if you wanna gamble, you can go for used DSRL .. Personally I would not go yet for Nikon Z mount ... it's super-expensive, lenses are few and overpriced

 

[Grandpa Ron]

The fact still remains that the answer to the OPs original question of the proper gear can only be answered by the person using the gear.

An active photographer usually out grows an entry level camera, because they are asking it to do more than it will deliver. By that time they understand what their next camera/ lens/ other accessory has to be able to do, that their current one cannot.

Also by that time, nuances such as weight, ease of operation, tactile feel and of course cost start to gain importance.

Finally, it is best to keep in mind that there is no one universal answer to "What make a good photograph."