How to stop a birds wings.

shefjr

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What's missing here? I've for the past two days been strictly dedicated in attempting to stop the wings of birds. I have bumped up the ISO so that I can crank up the shutter speed. I have also left the aperture as wide as the lens will let me(even though I know the ideal aperture for the lens is at around f/9). I know it's all about the light and the past two days have been overcast. Maybe this lens (the bigma) can only be used on sunny days.

I'm pretty frustrated with this issue. I have been attempting to stop the birds wings for months with no improvement. I see others who have the same setup as me who produce wonderful photos of birds flying.

So my questions are,
1.Why are the wings still blurred?
2.Why does the birds head look blurred? ***I used a quality tripod set up in my home (so no wind, or other movement)
3.Why am I losing IMO so much detail?
4.Should I buy the Understanding Exposure book? Because, I feel as though this is an exposure issue on my part. I also feel I have a good understanding and grasp on the exposure triangle and how it works <----- typing this I know is an oxymoron.

Here is what I thought. If I bump up the ISO I shouldn't lose much detail because, in this case the ISO was only 800. I thought I could just use the noise reduction in PSE10 to fix some of the noise.

My setup, Sigma 150-500 5.6/6.3 on a D7000 on a giottos MT9360 with the MH 1300 ball head.
*** I also had the IS on setting 1. Be advised though that I also tested it off and I didn't notice much of a change.
The photo below is right out of the camera with no editing.

CameraNikon D7000
Exposure0.001 sec (1/800)
Aperturef/6.0
Focal Length350 mm
ISO Speed800


Thank you in advance for any help you can give.

John:thumbsup:
bluejays 077 by Shefjr, on Flickr
 
To begin with, the bird's wings are moving back up when you took the shot, so they're moving fairly fast. Catching the wings at the point where they transition between upward and downward will minimize movement. The bird will be moving it's wings very fast where he's at because he needs a lot of control to land. Try catching them away from landing and you'll have better luck. Shooting in daylight will help as well, instead of on an overcast day.

You should be able to bump the ISO up another stop or two for the lighting here. The head is blurred because it's OOF. Having the original image should show you the focus point(s) used.
 
First, why do you want them stopped? Personally I prefer some motion blur in the wings since it makes the shot look less static and more real.

You're going to have to get the shutter speed up to stop them dead cold. A Blue Jay you might get by with 1/1000 or a bit higher. A Hummingbird, probably 1/2000 or higher. Also, as Sparky stated time your shot when the wings are just transitioning from one direction to the other.

Edit ... You can also use a flash. Expose for the flash and not the ambient light and let the light from the flash do all the work.
 
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Well, first the entire image is soft and almost feels like the lens is pre-focused on the feeder when it should be focused on the bird. The bird is further from the lens (front to back) than the feeder. Too shallow a DOF on this one.
Have you done a back focus test on it? Do you have images that are sharp with this lens?
It wouldn't surprise me to need a shutter over 1/1000+ on bird's wings as they are coming in like that, though I have never tried it myself
 
Your aperture's wide open in an attempt to let in more light, but that will contribute to softness and thin DOF that makes it easy to miss the critical focus on the bird. That means you've got to stop it down some. Obviously, that means you need to compensate somewhere else to get more light in there.

Shutter speed's at 1/800, but that's not enough to stop those fast moving wings. So you need a faster shutter speed also. Again, that means you've got to compensate somewhere else to bring in more light, and it's not going to be in aperture, per the above.

Now you're down to two things left: One is ISO. Open it up as much as you dare to, as long as it's not sacrificing IQ. Does that work? Probably not. So what's left?

LIGHT. MOAR LIGHT. POUR ON THE LIGHT.

A speedlight can fire at up to 1/30,000 of a second or so. Think about that. That means that, in a dark enough situation (like a stopped down aperture and low ISO on a dark day), a speedlight can STILL capture something FAR FASTER than your shutter can ever hope to do. THAT is the 'secret' to high-speed photography: Fast strobes, and speedlights are some of the fastest and easiest to get your hands on.

It seems counter-intuitive at first, but here's the solution: Stop down the aperture to get better focus and more DOF out of that lens, bring down the ISO to get good IQ, set the shutter to it's flash sync speed, and pound one or more speedlights into the scene to stop the action for you.
 
Before I respond, disclaimer*** ;) My responses are at times taken as though I have attitude. I can assure you they DO NOT. I appreciate all replies that are given here. Thank you! :thumbup:

To begin with, the bird's wings are moving back up when you took the shot, so they're moving fairly fast. Catching the wings at the point where they transition between upward and downward will minimize movement. The bird will be moving it's wings very fast where he's at because he needs a lot of control to land. Try catching them away from landing and you'll have better luck. Shooting in daylight will help as well, instead of on an overcast day.

You should be able to bump the ISO up another stop or two for the lighting here. The head is blurred because it's OOF. Having the original image should show you the focus point(s) used.

It sounds to me like it's more then about luck than all together a "button" or something HUGE that I'm missing and additionally I need to do it in the sun.
Then on top of that, it's your opinion that the head is blurred because it's OOF. I'm going to answer this if I may when I get to MLeeK.

First, why do you want them stopped? Personally I prefer some motion blur in the wings since it makes the shot look less static and more real.

You're going to have to get the shutter speed up to stop them dead cold. A Blue Jay you might get by with 1/1000 or a bit higher. A Hummingbird, probably 1/2000 or higher. Also, as Sparky stated time your shot when the wings are just transitioning from one direction to the other.

Edit ... You can also use a flash. Expose for the flash and not the ambient light and let the light from the flash do all the work.

My choice to stop motion is because I have images that I wish I could have frozen the birds. This is more a practice/learning/teachable moment for me. I do agree that there are times when photos look better with motion blur. I'm practicing now for the times when I do venture out to be able to if I choose, freeze the motion.

I thought that someone might say get the shutter speed up higher and so today I actually did that. It just at 1/1000 but, IMO I don't feel that there is much of a difference in either photo.
Example;

ISO practicing with birds 053 by Shefjr, on Flickr

I've got a lot of practicing to do to get to a skill level where I can catch a bird in the "correct" position of it's wings. I'm gonna need a lot of luck for that. :( I understand that I could capture a less dramatic image away from the feeder but, I was hoping to capture that drama here.
I also did consider using a flash but, with it snowing here I didn't want to go that far. I thought I could accomplish what I wanted with the high ISO.


Well, first the entire image is soft and almost feels like the lens is pre-focused on the feeder when it should be focused on the bird. The bird is further from the lens (front to back) than the feeder. Too shallow a DOF on this one.
Have you done a back focus test on it? Do you have images that are sharp with this lens?
It wouldn't surprise me to need a shutter over 1/1000+ on bird's wings as they are coming in like that, though I have never tried it myself

I to be honest did pre-focus on the feeder. If I could however, humbly disagree with you I will (even though I guess the proof is in the image :confused: ). I only say that because I set up the feeder so that it would give me an equal distance or plane from where they fly in and out of on and x axis so to speak. I feel that the bird is well within that "plane" So, not to argue but more to plead my case and maybe make both you and Sparky consider if there may be something else ie. Image Stablization or the like.
I have not done a back focus test and to be honest I am having a hard time recalling whether I have any sharp images. Another project for me to do. :p

I thought I would be okay with the 1/1000 ss but, to me that is still not enough.


Again, thank you all for the help. Any further discussion is welcomed.
 
Before I respond, disclaimer*** ;) My responses are at times taken as though I have attitude. I can assure you they DO NOT. I appreciate all replies that are given here. Thank you! :thumbup:

To begin with, the bird's wings are moving back up when you took the shot, so they're moving fairly fast. Catching the wings at the point where they transition between upward and downward will minimize movement. The bird will be moving it's wings very fast where he's at because he needs a lot of control to land. Try catching them away from landing and you'll have better luck. Shooting in daylight will help as well, instead of on an overcast day.

You should be able to bump the ISO up another stop or two for the lighting here. The head is blurred because it's OOF. Having the original image should show you the focus point(s) used.

It sounds to me like it's more then about luck than all together a "button" or something HUGE that I'm missing and additionally I need to do it in the sun.
Then on top of that, it's your opinion that the head is blurred because it's OOF. I'm going to answer this if I may when I get to MLeeK.

First, why do you want them stopped? Personally I prefer some motion blur in the wings since it makes the shot look less static and more real.

You're going to have to get the shutter speed up to stop them dead cold. A Blue Jay you might get by with 1/1000 or a bit higher. A Hummingbird, probably 1/2000 or higher. Also, as Sparky stated time your shot when the wings are just transitioning from one direction to the other.

Edit ... You can also use a flash. Expose for the flash and not the ambient light and let the light from the flash do all the work.

My choice to stop motion is because I have images that I wish I could have frozen the birds. This is more a practice/learning/teachable moment for me. I do agree that there are times when photos look better with motion blur. I'm practicing now for the times when I do venture out to be able to if I choose, freeze the motion.

I thought that someone might say get the shutter speed up higher and so today I actually did that. It just at 1/1000 but, IMO I don't feel that there is much of a difference in either photo.
Example;

ISO practicing with birds 053 by Shefjr, on Flickr

I've got a lot of practicing to do to get to a skill level where I can catch a bird in the "correct" position of it's wings. I'm gonna need a lot of luck for that. :( I understand that I could capture a less dramatic image away from the feeder but, I was hoping to capture that drama here.
I also did consider using a flash but, with it snowing here I didn't want to go that far. I thought I could accomplish what I wanted with the high ISO.


Well, first the entire image is soft and almost feels like the lens is pre-focused on the feeder when it should be focused on the bird. The bird is further from the lens (front to back) than the feeder. Too shallow a DOF on this one.
Have you done a back focus test on it? Do you have images that are sharp with this lens?
It wouldn't surprise me to need a shutter over 1/1000+ on bird's wings as they are coming in like that, though I have never tried it myself

I to be honest did pre-focus on the feeder. If I could however, humbly disagree with you I will (even though I guess the proof is in the image :confused: ). I only say that because I set up the feeder so that it would give me an equal distance or plane from where they fly in and out of on and x axis so to speak. I feel that the bird is well within that "plane" So, not to argue but more to plead my case and maybe make both you and Sparky consider if there may be something else ie. Image Stablization or the like.
I have not done a back focus test and to be honest I am having a hard time recalling whether I have any sharp images. Another project for me to do. :p

I thought I would be okay with the 1/1000 ss but, to me that is still not enough.


Again, thank you all for the help. Any further discussion is welcomed.
What I see in the blue bird image is that the bird is coming in from the back of the image to our right-flying at a slight / type angle. He appears to be beyond the far side of the feeder here. I could be totally wrong and you could be having softness anywhere outside the center of the lens too.
 
Your aperture's wide open in an attempt to let in more light, but that will contribute to softness and thin DOF that makes it easy to miss the critical focus on the bird. That means you've got to stop it down some. Obviously, that means you need to compensate somewhere else to get more light in there.

Shutter speed's at 1/800, but that's not enough to stop those fast moving wings. So you need a faster shutter speed also. Again, that means you've got to compensate somewhere else to bring in more light, and it's not going to be in aperture, per the above.

Now you're down to two things left: One is ISO. Open it up as much as you dare to, as long as it's not sacrificing IQ. Does that work? Probably not. So what's left?

LIGHT. MOAR LIGHT. POUR ON THE LIGHT.

A speedlight can fire at up to 1/30,000 of a second or so. Think about that. That means that, in a dark enough situation (like a stopped down aperture and low ISO on a dark day), a speedlight can STILL capture something FAR FASTER than your shutter can ever hope to do. THAT is the 'secret' to high-speed photography: Fast strobes, and speedlights are some of the fastest and easiest to get your hands on.

It seems counter-intuitive at first, but here's the solution: Stop down the aperture to get better focus and more DOF out of that lens, bring down the ISO to get good IQ, set the shutter to it's flash sync speed, and pound one or more speedlights into the scene to stop the action for you.

I did consider stopping down the lens. I've read that the bigma is at it's best at f/9. I just as you pointed out would have had to then bump up ISO even more killing the IQ. I guess I kind of knew all along I wouldn't get what I wanted with the lighting that I had. I guess tomorrow I'll have to try a flash and see how that works. I guess the reason I didn't want to use a flash was because if I were out in nature I'm not going to be able to set up a flash and then direct a bird to fly by it.

Thank you for helping me. I'll keep on working at it.
 
Take images USING your ISO. Your camera is very capable of handling much higher than ISO 800. Just DO NOT underexpose. If you shoot a series at each ISO making sure you are properly exposed or JUST over proper exposure you'll find out at what ISO you can handle removing noise and retaining sharpness for your camera. Until you do that and know the limits of your camera you are really limiting yourself for no reason. I'd venture to guess you will be able to get sharp images after noise removal up to about ISO 3200 on your camera. That's a LOT more light.
 
Great suggestions on the settings above so I won't reiterate those, are you shooting in raw? How are you processing the images? Processing is very important and both shots look like they lack contrast and saturation, both VERY important to sharp BIF shots.
 
Take images USING your ISO. Your camera is very capable of handling much higher than ISO 800. Just DO NOT underexpose. If you shoot a series at each ISO making sure you are properly exposed or JUST over proper exposure you'll find out at what ISO you can handle removing noise and retaining sharpness for your camera. Until you do that and know the limits of your camera you are really limiting yourself for no reason. I'd venture to guess you will be able to get sharp images after noise removal up to about ISO 3200 on your camera. That's a LOT more light.

Actually, the second image that I posted I believe is at ISO 3200 and that image is also completely unedited. I'll make that part of tomorrows project of things to do since I have the WHOLE week off!!!!! :band:YAY!!! I had to interject some fun into the convo.
I don't know of a way to diagram my position relative to the feeder and bird so I drew up a lil photo it's not to scale lol obviously but gives you I hope a good idea.
The camera is roughly 25 feet away from the feeder.

diagram 001 by Shefjr, on Flickr
 
PixelRabbit,
I actually shoot in both RAW and JPEG. It's one of the nice things about the D7000 (2 card slots saving 2 diff formats). The images in this thread are right out of the camera. I didn't want to edit them so that people could see them as the were out of the camera. I'm currently only using PSE 10. I did however buy lightroom 4 and CS6. I just haven't yet started using them.
 
I to be honest did pre-focus on the feeder. If I could however, humbly disagree with you I will (even though I guess the proof is in the image :confused: ). I only say that because I set up the feeder so that it would give me an equal distance or plane from where they fly in and out of on and x axis so to speak. I feel that the bird is well within that "plane" So, not to argue but more to plead my case and maybe make both you and Sparky consider if there may be something else ie. Image Stablization or the like.
I have not done a back focus test and to be honest I am having a hard time recalling whether I have any sharp images. Another project for me to do. :p
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. Anyone who has shot action shots of any kind has most likely done the same thing at one time or another. I do it a lot shooting races by focusing on a particular point on the track and waiting for the car or motorcycle to get to that point. I also do it with birds when I know it's where they are going to be. I shot a bunch of Hummingbird photos a couple of months ago and did the exact same thing.

The D7000 has enough resolution that you can afford to zoom back in a touch and give yourself a little wider field of view. This gives you a little bit more time to see the bird coming into the field of view, and a bit more depth of field. I have the same lens and same body, and usually shoot birds at ISO 1600 and f/8. The lens works great there and there is hardly any noise. The noise is low enough that I very seldom do any post-processing noise reduction. ISO 3200 should also work quite well with some noise reduction afterwards.

One thing I have noticed about that lens is that it looses a lot of contrast when there isn't a lot of light. Both of your tests appear to have been shot on overcast days and that's part of your loss of contrast. I normally just use my 70-300 when it's overcast because I have come to know that anything shot with my Sigma is going to look washed out and low contrast. Pick a day with bright sunlight, even if your feeders are in the shade, and you'll see a world of difference.

Also, when using a tripod that is locked in place turn image stabilization off. It can induce softness in the image when there is no motion to compensate for.

And finally, waste shots. I normally take bursts of several shots when shooting birds. It costs nothing to take them and throw them away, but many times the first shot isn't as good as another one in the burst, or I find one in the burst where I like the head or wing position better.

Birds are tough to shoot. Keep at it, you're doing fine.
 
I've only messed with birds at the feeder a few times, but I'll throw out what I've learned the hard way - as simple as it seems, how clean is the window you are shooting through? We pay a ton of attention to the glass attached to our camera, but have you cleaned your windows, between the panes if possible? If you have newer windows, what kind of coating has been applied to the glass? It may not be the camera at all, but the 'filter' you are putting in front of it.
 
Your drawing tells me much even without where I see the bird as in place. The red line is your plane of focus. The B and arrow is where I see the bird as being. Either way, you have the bird beyond your plane of focus. $DOF.jpg
 

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