Is this picture fake?

MONDARIZ · Nov 27, 2009

Hi,

Im a member of a Historic Aviation forum and the following aircraft image has recently been discussed there. It appears that a large number of forumites consider the image a modern fake.

There is a general consensus, that the pilot in the aircraft is a dummy, as its impossible to position a limp body in that pose. The aircraft has furthermore been moved from its original location and has sustained damage not consistent with a belly landing.

The picture is thus a fake crash. But is the picture a period (WWII) photograph, or is it a modern reconstruction based on a model aircraft (its quite possible to make such a detailed model if you are a model geek!)?

We all agree that the picture has some kind of a fake quality, but not about why it looks fake. It would be interesting to see, what a photographer thinks of the picture.

mJs · Nov 27, 2009

I'm no expert, but he does look a little large for the cockpit... just the height of him compared to the windscreen...

Garbz · Nov 27, 2009

It doesn't need to be a modern fake. Why couldn't they fake it back then? People could fake some magnificent images long before the advent of computers.

The only thing that looks fake is the pilot. But while your typical accident would likely see him slumped forward in the seat, I don't see why he could have slumped back too.

MONDARIZ · Nov 27, 2009

Garbz said:
It doesn't need to be a modern fake. Why couldn't they fake it back then? People could fake some magnificent images long before the advent of computers.

The only thing that looks fake is the pilot. But while your typical accident would likely see him slumped forward in the seat, I don't see why he could have slumped back too.

True, but the idea is that they didn't need to. In the last months of WWII there were crashed aircraft everywhere in Europe. This picture is supposed to be from the private collection of an American GI. Also, the aircraft is of a particular model, that it would make little sense of faking back then. Meaning that if its faked its faked by someone with a very good knowledge of historic aviation. These data was generally not available to the average GI back then and neither were such detailed models.

The seat is much lower. To pose like that in the cockpit, he would have needed to be propped up, or stiff as a board, or alive, or a dummy.

gsgary · Nov 27, 2009

If you look the plane is on a mound so his seat could have been pushed up

MONDARIZ · Nov 27, 2009

gsgary said:
If you look the plane is on a mound so his seat could have been pushed up

Its simply not possible, that the body in the cockpit is the pilot. Its not just the position of the body (the cockpit area is armored and would not be popped up, by a small mound of sand), he is not wearing flight gear either.

The aircraft has also been on the ground for some time in this picture (and has probably been moved, as there is no landing marks behind it). There are a number of indications towards this, but primarily the machinegun breeches are open, which must be done from the cockpit pretty hard with a body inside it. Furthermore has someone been around and pillaged souvenirs access panels are open and most of the engine cowling is removed. The tail has been vandalized on the ground. It would not be possible to belly land an aircraft with the tail in this condition and it cant be impact damage maybe it has been used for target practice by passing aircraft, or is might have been removed as a souvenir (a sought after item, as it bears German markings and possible aerial victory marks).

The real pilot probably walked away after the landing, it looks very survivable unless he was injured before the plane hit the dirt.

PatrickHMS · Nov 27, 2009

...and if a plane had been there long enough to be in such bad and weathered
condition, a human body of the dead pilot would not be so intact...

MrRamonG · Nov 27, 2009

mJs said:
I'm no expert, but he does look a little large for the cockpit... just the height of him compared to the windscreen...

If the body had been sitting there a while, wouldn't it bloat up, making it appear larger.

Gaerek · Nov 27, 2009

I'm not expert for picking out fakes, but one question I always ask when someone says, "That's a fake!" is this. What would be the purpose to fake this shot? If you can think of an obvious motive to fake it, then it stands to reason that it's possible it is a fake. If you can't think of an obvious motive to fake it, then it's likely to be genuine. Obviously, this doesn't always work, but it makes for a good starting point. OP even said that it makes little sense to fake this.

Now, if there is no possible way that the 'person' in the cockpit is a dead person, and if it's obviously moved, I'm confused as to why you are asking if this is faked. If both of those conditions are as you say they are (and not being an aircraft expert, I need to take your word on it), then it is obviously a fake. I don't think the photo has been manipulated, but obviously, the aircraft subject of the shot has been physically manipulated.

Why would they fake this? Who knows. There could be any number of reasons why.

MONDARIZ · Nov 27, 2009

Gaerek said:
I'm not expert for picking out fakes, but one question I always ask when someone says, "That's a fake!" is this. What would be the purpose to fake this shot? If you can think of an obvious motive to fake it, then it stands to reason that it's possible it is a fake. If you can't think of an obvious motive to fake it, then it's likely to be genuine. Obviously, this doesn't always work, but it makes for a good starting point. OP even said that it makes little sense to fake this.

Now, if there is no possible way that the 'person' in the cockpit is a dead person, and if it's obviously moved, I'm confused as to why you are asking if this is faked. If both of those conditions are as you say they are (and not being an aircraft expert, I need to take your word on it), then it is obviously a fake. I don't think the photo has been manipulated, but obviously, the aircraft subject of the shot has been physically manipulated.

Why would they fake this? Who knows. There could be any number of reasons why.

Good question. The image depicts a Messerschmitt Bf 109K-4 Kurfürst, the last version of the famous German fighter aircraft. They were only produced in relatively small numbers and collectors are ready to pay top price for original images (according to rumours up to 1000 euro).Personally I think producing a quality fake image would be too much work for 1000 euro (unless it’s CGI and even I can see it’s not), but who knows.

By fake I mean, is it a period photo (1944-1945) of a real aircraft and not a small model made to look real (much later). I was purely wondering if there are any tell tale photographic clues that a skilled photographer with a keen eye could pick out.

If real, then, as you write, who knows why the set the scene like that – possibly they were just messing about and took some pictures.

Josh66 · Nov 27, 2009

I doubt that the plane is fake, or even that it's been moved. But I guess it's possible that the pilot is either fake or a live person posing...

The additional damage to the plane is probably what made it crash - not the result of it being moved later on.

Some of the most famous pictures from WWII were staged. It's called propaganda.