Losing business to amateurs

[Vince.1551]

I've decided to retire, buy a nice knife and become a plastic surgeon. Does Best Buy sell knives to amateurs for professional work?

Seems like you are confusing an actual, real, genuine, bona fide profession with a mere trade or craft.

A profession requires extensive and rigorous formal education, a substantial internship period, a residency, and finally a series of rigorous certification examinations to join a very exclusive profession, with explicit rules for conduct, practices, and legally binding rules for violations of professional standards and practices.

The photography trade requires nothing more than a person proclaiming, "I am a photographer!" BOOM! Instant photographer. Buy a few tools,and one is...a photographer. No required education, no required internship, no apprenticeship, no examinations, no board examinations, no licensing, no nothing required.

It is more demanding,and more difficult, to become a hairdresser or a barber than it is to become a photographer.

That is precisely the issue here. Every so often I hear someone who makes a buck or two from photography calls themselves a professional. And some Pros who can't even deliver quality work. Don't be surprised if I tell you that many Pros failed their distinction exams in our society. Likewise, some people who can snap a picture calling all their shots works of art.

And that is why I advocate, especially for professionals, to obtain some form of certification AND photography distinctions like associateships or fellowships in their field of work. Unfortunately most do not drive their business in a specific area of work. I can understand that as business is tough but at least try to excel in one area. Bearing in mind these distinction exams drives you to understand what is meant by quality work and not just a 'feel good' piece of paper.


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[photoguy99]

Derrel said it was easier to become a photographer than a hairdresser.

Not that it was easier to do the job. Just easier to enter the profession. And he's right. You need a license, which generally means that you've graduated from an approved school, to cut hair.

This is why the internet sucks. People don't bother to read what you write. They skim, guess at what you probably meant, and respond to that.

There's no penalty for guessing wrong, and it's quick, and often gratifying. So why bother with all that pesky reading?

 

[snowbear115 46]

In another year, SHE may be complaining about all the NEWER people shooting for free.

 

[Josh66]

Well, actually no. Retired people also think they can teach English or ESL because, y'know, they speak it, so they can teach it, too, right?

In my third year of Japanese, we had an English teacher who was Japanese. They thought that since he knew Japanese, and knew how to teach English, teaching Japanese should be easy. I can sort of see the logic behind it (he could teach *a* language, and he could speak the one they wanted him to teach), but it didn't work out as well as they hoped. It turns out that Japanese and English don't really have much in common.

 

[@JasonChildren]

I have to say that if ypu lose a gig you lose a gig. Doesnt matter whether the other shutter dog is being paid or not. We live in a world where great content is all around us. Adapt or die.

 

[Vince.1551]

I have to say that if ypu lose a gig you lose a gig. Doesnt matter whether the other shutter dog is being paid or not. We live in a world where great content is all around us. Adapt or die.

Well Said !


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[imagemaker46]

A year ago i was bitter at how the business was changing, I took it personally and that was my first mistake. I struggled to find enough work, stressed over everything, had a heart attack, got repaired and felt sorry for myself that my career was failing apart. Last year I didn't see anything getting better. I was wrong. Things turned around and I found myself enjoying what I was doing the good shoots were coming fast, and I stopped being as stressed.

This goes back to what @JasonChildren said, I stopped worrying about losing shoots, became a more positive person and changed my overall mental attitude, not just towards photography but life in general and it has now been the best year I've had in over a decade. Once I accepted the change in photography(I don't like it, and I still get annoyed dealing with people offering advice that aren't in my business that just don't understand) but now I don't take anything personally.

The original comments I started with had nothing to do with me losing a job, but a friend, he was trying to deal with losing the gig to a person that didn't need the money, and shoots for free, or very little. I have no problem if someone loses a shoot to an amateur that can do the job, and is charging a competitive rate. Then they are working on more even ground. I have lost shoots to other professionals, and I have other professionals nipping at my heals all the time, but I also have professionals that treat me with enough respect that they won't go after my clients, and that I appreciate as I treat them with the same respect.

 

[Warhorse]

Some would say that these types of "pro's", are like sharks circling in for the kill.

 

[Mr. Innuendo]

I had stopped reading most of the responses a few days ago. I did however find out that the poacher is now shooting Jr hockey for $50 per game. I did some figuring on this one. I believe there are 40 home games, each game is around 2-3 hours. There is the parking fee of $10 per game, and all the post process work. While it does look like on the surface she is making $2000 for the season, take away the $400 for parking, the post time and she is making less than minimum wage.

You're making some assumptions here. First, I've never shot any type of event, sports or otherwise, for which I was required to pay for parking. It's one of the first things I make sure the client knows I will not pay for. I've never had a problem negotiating that. She may well have done the same.

Second, you're assuming she's shooting the entire game. I know plenty of people who actually don't do that, and they're shooting at both the collegiate and professional levels.

You're also making an assumption of how much post-production she does. I've shot events where I've had to do exactly zero PP work. Nothing. It's not unheard of.

I suppose as long as she's happy with that, and probably hasn't figured out she really isn't making any money at all, then good for her.

Again, it probably isn't the primary concern for her.

There has been some very negative chatter among the other photographers in town about her practices, and it is getting chilly for her. You get what you get.

What the other photographers think doesn't matter. What do their clients think? How many of their clients would jump at the chance to pay someone a fraction of what they have been spending and getting acceptable photos in return?

Some will want to call it an old boys club, but the majority of those affected are the young guys just trying to get by that need the work.

Well, then they can go look for work elsewhere, can't they?

I've never allowed myself to assume that I'm entitled to work for someone, but it certainly seems like you believe your buddy is entitled to work for this school. Schools are businesses, and businesses watch where they spend money. Your friend has been undercut by someone who has shown the school that she can provide acceptable images for a lower price. That represents "value" to the school.

Your friend sounds like someone who's unable to keep a client. I have plenty of clients who've been approached by others, offering the same (or more) for less, and my clients have turned them down. It's called "loyalty", and it's something that a photographer needs to cultivate and maintain.

It sounds like your friend wasn't much good at doing that.

I've decided to retire, buy a nice knife and become a plastic surgeon.

This is, of course, a silly statement. The "poacher" as you refer to her is probably a much better photographer than you would ever be a plastic surgeon.

 

[Mr. Innuendo]

Derrel, All I can say is try putting 15 hour days for three straight weeks of shooting in +90f and in the same day -45 after spending an hour climbing a mountain with 40 pounds of gear on your back and then tell me that it is easier than cutting hair.

****snip****

The difference is that my desk is 7,926.41 miles around, and not a 6x6 cube.

My "desk" is wherever I choose to be, as well.

But I don't try to impress anyone with that. Why? Because it's really not all that impressive.

 

[imagemaker46]

Innuendo, you are the one making assumptions, I'm close enough to the situation in this small market that I do know the details that she is working under, who she is working for and how much she is getting paid. I know the conditions that she is shooting under as well, and there is post involved, it is near impossible under the lights in the arena to get away without correction. Basically you have made statements that you have absolutely no knowledge or understanding about. Should I assume that you are not a full time working professional?

I do this for a living, as a full time photographer, so making the statement about where I work, I could have just said world wide. I wasn't looking to impress anyone with what I have said. Derrel took some of his every now and then cheap shots at a working professional. I just responded to that.

Again another person lost with a sarcastic statement about being a plastic surgeon.

 

[Warhorse]

I guess your dreams of being a plastic surgeon are okay enough.

Dream on!!

 

[Mr. Innuendo]

Innuendo, you are the one making assumptions, I'm close enough to the situation in this small market that I do know the details that she is working under, who she is working for and how much she is getting paid. I know the conditions that she is shooting under as well, and there is post involved, it is near impossible under the lights in the arena to get away without correction. Basically you have made statements that you have absolutely no knowledge or understanding about. Should I assume that you are not a full time working professional?

You can assume whatever you wish; I don't care.

I am, in fact, a full time professional, and I have a long list of long-time clients. I make sure those clients are happy, and uninterested in hiring someone else. Your friend failed in doing that. You can whine about whatever you wish but, at its core, that's the problem: Your friend allowed himself to lose a client. That's not even something that can be debated.

I do this for a living, as a full time photographer, so making the statement about where I work, I could have just said world wide. I wasn't looking to impress anyone with what I have said. Derrel took some of his every now and then cheap shots at a working professional. I just responded to that.

I don't know Derrell from Adam, so I won't comment about what he's said. He's taken no cheap shots at me, so I'm unaffected. Then again, I'm not some entitled guy who calls himself a pro, only to complain when I lose a client. I'm proud to say I've never been fired by a client. I've fired some, but have never been shown the door by any of them.

Again another person lost with a sarcastic statement about being a plastic surgeon.

Well, your comment was pretty silly.

You chose to use an example something which requires years of formal education and compared it to something which does not. One is a medical specialty, the other is an art form.

Should I "assume" that you think you would be a better plastic surgeon than a photographer?

LOL!

 

[vintagesnaps]

Universities don't function like for profit businesses. The one near me is large enough to have photographers as employees and has student photographers but I don't know if they ever contract that type work out.

I just found using a volunteer for a previously contracted position rather surprising as strict as things are these days with usage and from what I know of NCAA regs related to photography (but of course it depends on where you live). We don't know if the school was happy with the photographer's work or why the change was made.

And why couldn't photography be a profession? Certainly there are people with cameras calling themselves what they want (and I guess time will tell how long they last at it) but there are photographers that would be considered professionals. Take a look at Sportsshooter. I took a sports photography workshop with a photographer who won the Pulitzer, I don't know if he has a degree but he's one that would be considered a professional photographer.

 

[imagemaker46]

I have no idea what kind of photography you are involved with Innuendo, perhaps you are less affected than other fields. I work almost entirely shooting sports. I have a good client base and that's what really matters to me. I know how good I am with a camera, I produce consistently good images on every shoot, and that's all I care about, my clients appreciate the work I do. Who knows maybe I would have made a good plastic surgeon, I guess we'l never know. I've never said I'm entitled, many other on this forum say it, which means very little to me. People online have no idea what I do or how I work with clients, or other photographers.

Seems that you are capable of summing up a person in the few hundred words that you've read. Most of what people say on this forum is crap anyway, once you weed it all out there are many that have respect for others. I've lost clients, not due to my work but to their economic concerns, photography is the first to go when they are trying to work a tight budget, and I understand that, especially in the area I work in. When it comes to photographers overstating how many clients they have, how much money they make and how busy they are, most pad the truth. Anyone asks me, they get an honest and straight answer.

Good for you that you've never lost a client, like I said I have no idea what you shoot, if it's shooting pictures of houses, there is always a market for that, and it's pretty easy to do. In my 40 years shooting, I've seen clients come and go, that's just the way it works, I move on.