Love Me Some Hate Mail

[AmberAtLoveAndInk]

Sorry fellow forum members for my MIA status as of late, but I have been coming on and viewing everyone's posts from time to time during this very busy time in my life.
I wanted to share with you what I see that seems to be getting to be a more common thing, hate mail from local photographers. I think a member here posted something similar not too long ago.

I posted an ad on Craigslist looking for a helping hand on my next wedding coming up. I said the job was not for pay, but I would cover all transportation and the help could use this as a learning experience and an opportunity to add more to their portfolio. Many of you are probably thinking, oh Lord. But from my own experience, I would have loved to help at a wedding and get a little more perspective on things even if I wasn't getting paid. Anyway, if someone doesn't like it they don't have to reply right?

Wrong. They do reply. I had quite a few bites, (all pretty weird and much older men, kind of skeeved me out) but I had two photographers actually send me hate mail lol. In both cases they had obviously viewed my site and looked into my pricing because they attacked me for being "cheap" and said I needed to learn how to price and that I was unprofessional, and to leave the wedding work to them lmao.

These emails also contained a good deal of profanity thrown through out. Obviously these people are much more "professional" than me.

I took my posting down and thanked the idiots for reminding me why I prefer to work alone. What hateful beings, they are so worried I will steal business from them that they go on to threaten me. One called me a b**** it's quite exciting lol. I guess this means people see me as a force to be reckoned with.

Has anyone else received some nasty emails?

This has given me yet another reason why I should stay off Craigslist. I will now start looking for an assistant the old fashion way and will continue to rock the weddings solo until I can find a good fit (whom I will pay)

 

[e.rose]

Girl...

There is nothing wrong with what you posted. It's certainly a "get what you pay for" situation, so if you're not paying your second shooter, you may not get as high as quality as you would with an experienced second shooter, worth their pay... But that being said, I second shot a couple weddings for free for experience. Anyone else looking for the same would probably love to shoot with you.

As far as everything else goes... f**k 'em. I wouldn't have even responded.

I would have kept my listing up, deleted any hate mail, and kept on trucking.

I mean I would have DEFINITELY posted about it, for entertainment's sake, hahaha, but not responded to them.

 

[AmberAtLoveAndInk]

Thank you! I didn't realize I had crossed some line by asking for a second with experience as pay. The listing wasn't even really geared towards all shooting, just needing a hand with getting groups together (both weddings I've recently done had extremely drunk groomsman to deal with) and a reflector/flash holder when needed, allowing them to shoot what they want when I don't need them immediately.

maybe I should have kept it up, but the weirdos I was getting put me off pretty fast as well lol.

 

[Overread]

Craig's list is very much a case of putting up an ad and then sifting through a lot of junk to get what you're after.

Also I agree with Erose - just block the hate-senders/report them if Craig'slist has such a feature and continue on how you are. Ok so you're cheaper than some; so long as your business model is sensibly profitable and you're making a good income from it then there isn't any "crime" you've made. You're just servicing a cheaper section of the market compared to others. Hate-mail isn't anything more than spam to be ignored in that context.







Or if you want to annoy them write back saying that you've taken to heart what they said and can they provide a complete and fully priced business model for you to use from the ground up - including a new marketing strategy for advertising to a higher tier of paying client, whilst taking into account your local working area (because you can bet they won't be "that" serious about you "raising your prices")

 

[e.rose]

Thank you! I didn't realize I had crossed some line by asking for a second with experience as pay. The listing wasn't even really geared towards all shooting, just needing a hand with getting groups together (both weddings I've recently done had extremely drunk groomsman to deal with) and a reflector/flash holder when needed, allowing them to shoot what they want when I don't need them immediately.

maybe I should have kept it up, but the weirdos I was getting put me off pretty fast as well lol.

Next time, I wouldn't post your e-mail or your website.

Just list what it is, what the pay is, if you're offering, and have them e-mail you (via the automatically assigned anonymous Craigslist e-mail) with their portfolio if they have one, and for more information, and if you feel good about what you get, respond with your website and whatever other details you need to give them.

I don't second shoot for free *anymore*, but I did when I started.

Actually, I don't shoot weddings at all except AS a second shooter. That's literally all I do right now. Senior portraits, and second shooting.

I have a friend who uses me on every wedding he does (he's not primarily a wedding photographer, but he's picking up more as he goes, because the money is nice once in a while, haha), and I will drop everything I'm dong to shoot with him, because 1. He's fun to work with and 2. He pays me the most out of anyone I've ever second shot with

But I'll work with other people, for a little less. I have a set rate, so as long as they're willing to pay me at least that, then I'll shoot with whomever. My friend just refuses to pay me my rate, because he thinks I have it set too low. What a friend, right?

But, I digress. If you're USED to working alone anyway... getting a second who is willing to work for experience will be fine for you for now. Because even if they TOTALLY screw it up, at least you probably will have covered everything anyway, since you're used to working alone. So it gives you the possible option of more images as well as gives them experience.

 

[Overread]

I'd say if you're looking to hire you'll have to put your website up at the very least - its the first thing most people look for today in a legitimate advertisement. Sure don't put your personal email up as that will just get picked up by troll/adbots but do let a prospective person see that you are serious with your website and work

 

[AmberAtLoveAndInk]

Craig's list is very much a case of putting up an ad and then sifting through a lot of junk to get what you're after.

Also I agree with Erose - just block the hate-senders/report them if Craig'slist has such a feature and continue on how you are. Ok so you're cheaper than some; so long as your business model is sensibly profitable and you're making a good income from it then there isn't any "crime" you've made. You're just servicing a cheaper section of the market compared to others. Hate-mail isn't anything more than spam to be ignored in that context.







Or if you want to annoy them write back saying that you've taken to heart what they said and can they provide a complete and fully priced business model for you to use from the ground up - including a new marketing strategy for advertising to a higher tier of paying client, whilst taking into account your local working area (because you can bet they won't be "that" serious about you "raising your prices")

yes, I am cheaper than most, a lot cheaper. But this being my first year offering weddings I didn't want to raise the bar so high that I actually freak myself out thinking about how much money someone has invested in me. I also think that everyone should have beautiful wedding pictures, even if they are not in the best financial situation. I make out enough for me to be happy with and my clients have been wonderful. Thanks for your reply, but I am still going to can the Craigslist method. Too much crap to deal with.

 

[AmberAtLoveAndInk]

I also LOL'd for real when reading your "send me a detailed business plan" advice lmao. Wish I would have thought of that.

 

[Overread]

A few thoughts on pricing:

1) When you set and market a price point the market for that price point will respond (with good marketing of course). If you work to build yourself a low price point market when you're "new" to the game one problem is that when you then raise that price point you've then lost that investment in marketing. All that time, money and referrals are now wasted and you've got to rebuild a market from the ground up. Whilst its often said that a serious good price for a service will yield more work, you'll likely see a slump till your new marketing kicks in.

2) You can always discount - set yourself a good serious sensible wage for your time, then you can introduce things like "First 50 weddings 30% off" and "Summer Sale - 40% off all prices this summer only" etc... Basically you're marketing and pitching a higher price point; but at the same time you're enticing people in with a discount. It's a sort of similar effect, but it means that you've not actually "raised" your prices, the discount period just ended.

3) Know your cost of doing business - your living costs - your tax costs etc... - know how much an hour of your time is worth for your company to break even whilst allowing you to live your life off your work. That's your break line - anything less is you giving your product as a gift to your client - anything more is building in profit as well as increased financial security.

 

[e.rose]

A few thoughts on pricing:

1) When you set and market a price point the market for that price point will respond (with good marketing of course). If you work to build yourself a low price point market when you're "new" to the game one problem is that when you then raise that price point you've then lost that investment in marketing. All that time, money and referrals are now wasted and you've got to rebuild a market from the ground up. Whilst its often said that a serious good price for a service will yield more work, you'll likely see a slump till your new marketing kicks in.

2) You can always discount - set yourself a good serious sensible wage for your time, then you can introduce things like "First 50 weddings 30% off" and "Summer Sale - 40% off all prices this summer only" etc... Basically you're marketing and pitching a higher price point; but at the same time you're enticing people in with a discount. It's a sort of similar effect, but it means that you've not actually "raised" your prices, the discount period just ended.

3) Know your cost of doing business - your living costs - your tax costs etc... - know how much an hour of your time is worth for your company to break even whilst allowing you to live your life off your work. That's your break line - anything less is you giving your product as a gift to your client - anything more is building in profit as well as increased financial security.

Can I give you some feedback on your advice?

Particular bullet point 2?

NEVER, ever, ever, ever, ever, discount, or you're going to be back to bullet point 1.

Offer them some incentive instead. "First 50 weddings get $100 print credit" or something like that. Make them book you at your normal rate, and then give them a "gift" on top of it or something.

And if you HAVE to "discount", don't call it a discount.

Say "Special introductory rate for first X weddings", and list your NORMAL rates on your site. Advertise the introductory rate in your marketing and social media, but make sure you ACTUAL rates are what your rates are. And make it known wherever you're advertising that it's a *introductory* rate and it will go up to the normal rate after a certain date, or a certain number of sessions.

 

[Overread]

Good points - I think we are partly saying the same thing, but yes wording of things is very key! Also never discount forever - I've seen a couple of companies keep "special discounts" going for so long that you get the impression that its just the normal price - a tacky tactic.

 

[e.rose]

Good points - I think we are partly saying the same thing, but yes wording of things is very key! Also never discount forever - I've seen a couple of companies keep "special discounts" going for so long that you get the impression that its just the normal price - a tacky tactic.

See, the difference between a discount and offering product pricing is:

I can say, "$150 discount on senior sessions!", which means they could pay me $100, have a senior session done and that would be that.

Or I can say, "Get a $150 product credit when you book your senior session!", which means they pay my FULL session fee, which is $250 -- And then they have $150 to spend after the fact. WHICH... is only enough to get them 3 prints... which gives them incentive to spend more, because most people want more than just 3 gift prints.

So they can get a $100 session and no incentive to spend... Or they can pay my full session fee (which weeds out the price shoppers and leads me to people more my target clientele, because it creates value) AND give them an incentive to spend more with me.

Know what I mean?

 

[imagemaker46]

I'm sure this kind of thing goes on all the time. The biggest problem is not that they may not be threatened by your skills, but when people start advertising rates much lower than what many consider "market value" it drives the whole market down. Gas station price wars are a good example. It's not a bad idea to offer deals on occasion but using a rate that undercuts everyone else, regardless of how good or bad any of the players are, it will always create problems, and in your case, hate mail. They do feel threatened because of the rates and for good reason. I won't defend hate mail from anyone. I just understand both sides.

I will defend anyone that is trying to make a go as a full time photographer, I respect that they have the guts or perhaps these days its more nuts, but tthere is never reason for hate mail. Many on here keep saying that the weekend shooters aren't the ones the professionals should worry about, the truth is that they are exactly the ones that many professionals have to worry about. I'm finding more and more amateurs with high end gear shooting events for free/tickets/passes and it affects the photographers that can't work this way.

Think about a new fee structure, you've been given some good ideas by other members on here, but expect more negative comments if you advertise below everyone else.

 

[pixmedic]

I would email each and every one of them back and say this...

Thank you for your reply.
Please understand that I have tailored my prices to a very specific business model, which is to lowball all of you out of business.
As soon as you lose all of your clients and have to close shop, I will immediately raise my prices and cash in.
in the meantime, please enjoy a large helping of my nearly world famous "laughing at you while your business flounders because you suck at it and have to blame others for your crappy business sense" pie... a la mode.

sincerely,

the photographer with a better business plan than yours because I actually have one.

 

[robbins.photo]

So you put an ad on craigslist and got email back from haters and pervs.

Hmmm.. well at least we know your internet connection is working. Lol

I really wouldn't give this one too much thought, just the sort of thing you expect with craigslist.