Making $ From Trade Shoot?

[DGMPhotography]

Hello!

So I've been doing a bit more TF boudoir work lately, and I'm not sure of the best way to share this work.

I decided to only use Instagram as my social network for my new brand. This leaves me with the issue of not being able to easily share full albums from shoots (which I'd normally do on Facebook). I chose to not use Facebook because the main reason I have Facebook pages is so that I'm able to share the posts/photos to my personal account and leverage my personal connections. But, I don't plan to share boudoir work that way. Plus, I already have three pages. It's almost too much as it is. I also don't have a website for this type of work yet, and I'm not sure if I will since it's not the main focus of my work (I do plan to add bridal boudoir to my main site at some point).

Of course, I'm only sharing if the model is okay with it, but even when they're okay with me posting, not all of them want me to tag them in the photos.

So, one thought that crossed my mind, is to use Patreon, and have a private gallery using a third party site, or as a secret page on one of my other sites, and only give access to people who have "pledged" on Patreon. It's a popular monetization/content regulation model with this type of content, but, I'm not sure how people typically handle it. As the photo taker, I know I have the copyright, which my contract stipulates, but from an ethical standpoint, should I be using their pictures in this paywall model? What about shoots where the client pays me? Or should I pay them?

One idea I had is to give the model a limited license to also use them for their own Patreons accounts (or similar paywall systems) so even if they don't, I still feel like it's fair since they have the option to, and I'm not the only one able to make money from a creative collaboration.

Another idea is to just not share full albums at all, and post just my favorites on Instagram, but that seems like such a waste. I'm so accustomed to "check out the rest on Facebook!" in my Instagram captions... So I'm at a loss.

Thoughts?

 

[DanOstergren]

I think that if you're doing these TF shoots specifically with models, and they're signing a model release that is perfectly clear about how you plan to use their photos and also allowing them the same opportunity to make money on their own (meaning you don't pay royalties to them on your sales but they have the ability to make their own sales with said images separately), ethically and legally you should be fine.

 

[tirediron]

Assuming everything is declared and agreed upon up front, like Dan, I don't see an ethical issue. What I do see is a "Why" issue; as in: "Why the hell would I pay to follow you?" Not meaning you specifically, but having just spent 20 minutes reading all about this Patreon, it occurs to me that in about 99.9999% of cases the ONLY ones making any money off of this are going to be the shareholders of Patreon. I can see where someone like Annie Leibovitz might make a go of it, but for the average shutter monkey or other creative? Seems like a waste of time to me.

I'm curious as to why you want such a separation between this and your other work? I can see separating say, landscape and boudoir, but wedding, bridal boudoir, boudoir, and female fashion work? It's all related IMO...

 

[DGMPhotography]

Assuming everything is declared and agreed upon up front, like Dan, I don't see an ethical issue. What I do see is a "Why" issue; as in: "Why the hell would I pay to follow you?" Not meaning you specifically, but having just spent 20 minutes reading all about this Patreon, it occurs to me that in about 99.9999% of cases the ONLY ones making any money off of this are going to be the shareholders of Patreon. I can see where someone like Annie Leibovitz might make a go of it, but for the average shutter monkey or other creative? Seems like a waste of time to me.

I'm curious as to why you want such a separation between this and your other work? I can see separating say, landscape and boudoir, but wedding, bridal boudoir, boudoir, and female fashion work? It's all related IMO...

Haha, it's just how it is. Patreon and sites like it are the king of content monetization. People would pay to see my photos because there are thirsty dudes from Guatemala with cash to blow. And the other portion is people who actually really love and want to support my work. And that's not an exaggeration. A female influencer friend of mine told me exactly that.

I do plan to integrate bridal boudoir into my wedding work at some point (which is why I'm practicing now), but in general, at least in my circles, it's interpreted differently. I posted ONE classy boudoir photo on my main account and next thing you know my mom is calling me saying she can't believe I'm getting girls naked; all these guys message me with thirst comments; and other conservative people forming impressions of me that I just don't care to foster. I don't care what people think of me, but I do care about how it impacts my business. So at least for right now, I'm avoiding it and just using my boudoir Instagram account.

 

[tirediron]

...People would pay to see my photos because there are thirsty dudes from Guatemala with cash to blow.

That makes it sound an awful lot like a porn feed...

... And the other portion is people who actually really love and want to support my work. And that's not an exaggeration. A female influencer friend of mine told me exactly that.

Okay... supporters are great, but how much do you get out of their support dollar? I'm not criticizing, just trying to understand. It seems to me that if people are willing to support you in a monetary fashion, there should be better ways to exploit it rather than losing [I assume] a significant portion off the top to this "service".

...I do plan to integrate bridal boudoir into my wedding work at some point (which is why I'm practicing now), but in general, at least in my circles, it's interpreted differently. I posted ONE classy boudoir photo on my main account and next thing you know my mom is calling me saying she can't believe I'm getting girls naked; all these guys message me with thirst comments; and other conservative people forming impressions of me that I just don't care to foster. I don't care what people think of me, but I do care about how it impacts my business. So at least for right now, I'm avoiding it and just using my boudoir Instagram account.

It sounds to me like you're travelling in the wrong circles. Okay, Mom.. Mom's Mom and you can't change that. Everyone else? You need to get away from all of that. The line between boudoir and porn can be a very fine one, and you need to ensure that your clients know on which side of that you fall.

To be taken seriously as a boudoir photographer, especially a male boudoir photographer you have to be absolutely above reproach. You don't want anyone around you that is going to make comments that might in any way be construed as offensive to your models. I also think you need to decide on a course and stay on it. Adding to a product line is fine, but having a multitude of product lines under different brands is not a recipe for success. What you [should] want is for people to recognize your name as a skilled photographer and to commission YOU based on their knowledge of YOUR work. Hiding behind a bunch of different brands isn't, IMO, the way to go.

 

[DGMPhotography]

...People would pay to see my photos because there are thirsty dudes from Guatemala with cash to blow.

That makes it sound an awful lot like a porn feed...

... And the other portion is people who actually really love and want to support my work. And that's not an exaggeration. A female influencer friend of mine told me exactly that.

Okay... supporters are great, but how much do you get out of their support dollar? I'm not criticizing, just trying to understand. It seems to me that if people are willing to support you in a monetary fashion, there should be better ways to exploit it rather than losing [I assume] a significant portion off the top to this "service".

...I do plan to integrate bridal boudoir into my wedding work at some point (which is why I'm practicing now), but in general, at least in my circles, it's interpreted differently. I posted ONE classy boudoir photo on my main account and next thing you know my mom is calling me saying she can't believe I'm getting girls naked; all these guys message me with thirst comments; and other conservative people forming impressions of me that I just don't care to foster. I don't care what people think of me, but I do care about how it impacts my business. So at least for right now, I'm avoiding it and just using my boudoir Instagram account.

It sounds to me like you're travelling in the wrong circles. Okay, Mom.. Mom's Mom and you can't change that. Everyone else? You need to get away from all of that. The line between boudoir and porn can be a very fine one, and you need to ensure that your clients know on which side of that you fall.

To be taken seriously as a boudoir photographer, especially a male boudoir photographer you have to be absolutely above reproach. You don't want anyone around you that is going to make comments that might in any way be construed as offensive to your models. I also think you need to decide on a course and stay on it. Adding to a product line is fine, but having a multitude of product lines under different brands is not a recipe for success. What you [should] want is for people to recognize your name as a skilled photographer and to commission YOU based on their knowledge of YOUR work. Hiding behind a bunch of different brands isn't, IMO, the way to go.

People are gonna think what they want to think about my work. To elaborate... Despite it being tasteful boudoir, there are still people out there who are gonna get off from it. Maybe I'm too capitalistic, but I feel that if I'm going to have that reaction from those people regardless, I may as well monetize it, right?

As for the support portion.. I know it's not much, but as much as we may scoff at it, the model works. It's part of the crowdfunding economy. $1 won't make a huge difference, but if 100 people pledge $1 a month to you, that's big. That's $12,000 in a year. I know a girl who does boudoir and artistic nude modeling and is making $2000 a month by keeping it behind a paywall. I'm not saying I like it, but it seems foolish to not capitalize on that.

Everything else, I agree with you, but the internet makes that difficult. If something of mine is posted publicly, I can't necessarily control who does or doesn't see it.

I wish I did only have one brand, and that I only liked one type of photography. That would make things so much easier. But my interests are too varied. I want to make so many different things, and art is meant to be seen. But from a business standpoint, I have to separate the types of work from each other so I get hired. It's hard work, but I think it actually is a recipe for success, at least for me personally. However, my main priority is my wedding work. So whenever I'm busy with that, everything else takes a back seat. But when I'm not booked, I still want to create, and that's where the other brands come in.

 

[vintagesnaps]

If photography is done in trade usually the photographer would be able to use the photos in a portfolio and the client would be provided with photos without being charged. What you can do beyond that is going to depend on the contracts and what's specified as far as usage (specific use, for how long, etc.).

I've been on Patreon before to see what it was, and I don't get why people would just give people money that's not for charity and isn't paying for a product received or a service provided. If $100 a month makes a difference that doesn't seem like much if this is needed income. Out of that 12 thousand a year, how much of that comes out for taxes, health insurance, social security or other retirement, etc.?

I was wondering too why you couldn't put boudoir photography on your other photography pages, etc. If people know you as a photographer eventually it's likely it will turn up somewhere on social media etc. and I think it's going to be hard to try to keep friends and family or prospective clients from seeing it.

I've been a photographer a long time, and people that know me know I'm a photographer. They know I've done sports/events; they may have seen that I'm doing art photography these days. I just don't get needing to separate it, or doing something you can't show or tell people about.

I don't get what you mean by art being meant to be seen, especially since you don't want people you know to necessarily see it. Then you talk about photography from a business standpoint... I'm confused as to what you're trying to do. Photographers might do paid work and still do artwork on their own, it's not like you can't do both, but art probably isn't going to pay the bills for most people. I get wanting to do something creative, but I don't get needing to make money from it but then keep people from finding out what you're doing. I don't know how long you can keep up that pretense.

 

[tirediron]

...I feel that if I'm going to have that reaction from those people regardless, I may as well monetize it, right?

So you're shooting porn. Okay... fair enough, that's a revenue stream (and doubtless a lucrative one for some), but real clients, who will pay hundreds and thousands of dollars for a high-end boudoir session aren't going to touch you with a barge pole.

As for the support portion.. I know it's not much, but as much as we may scoff at it, the model works. It's part of the crowdfunding economy. $1 won't make a huge difference, but if 100 people pledge $1 a month to you, that's big. That's $12,000 in a year. I know a girl who does boudoir and artistic nude modeling and is making $2000 a month by keeping it behind a paywall. I'm not saying I like it, but it seems foolish to not capitalize on that.

Everything else, I agree with you, but the internet makes that difficult. If something of mine is posted publicly, I can't necessarily control who does or doesn't see it.

I wish I did only have one brand, and that I only liked one type of photography. That would make things so much easier. But my interests are too varied. I want to make so many different things, and art is meant to be seen. But from a business standpoint, I have to separate the types of work from each other so I get hired. It's hard work, but I think it actually is a recipe for success, at least for me personally. However, my main priority is my wedding work. So whenever I'm busy with that, everything else takes a back seat. But when I'm not booked, I still want to create, and that's where the other brands come in.

Hey, if it works for you, it works for you, but I honestly think you're making life a LOT harder for yourself than it needs to be. Have you had any business training? Entrepreneurial workshops? If not, I would strongly recommend you consider it.

 

[medic001918]

As for the support portion.. I know it's not much, but as much as we may scoff at it, the model works. It's part of the crowdfunding economy. $1 won't make a huge difference, but if 100 people pledge $1 a month to you, that's big. That's $12,000 in a year.

Your math is off. 100 people x $1 is $100.

$100 x 12 months is $1,200. It’s not $12,000. So to really make it a revenue stream you need a lot of followers at $1/month. You’d need $10/month at 100 followers to get $12,000/year. And that’s assuming you can retain those followers.

 

[Derrel]

Patreon is a new revenue source. Many people are not familiar with it

 

[vintagesnaps]

That's right, it is only $1200... I don't know if it's worth the time and trouble spent on a website to bring in that amount of income.

I've seen Patreon... giving people money doesn't make someone an art patron, I think those using the site to do that are misguided or deluding themselves. I guess if people want to give you money, so be it, but then do you have to list that as income? and pay taxes on it?? If not for now I'd think the IRS will catch up to that site one of these days.

I don't know if what you're doing is boudoir or not but it seems like something you're not exactly proud of doing. I've wondered along the same lines about training in business and marketing etc. I remember you being in school but don't seem to have worked much in whatever field you studied. If you wanted to switch gears and make a living in photography that's challenging to say the least.

I don't know if you have a business plan, but I wonder if it wouldn't be better to figure out how to do photography paired with another type job or work as your photography business builds. It doesn't sound like boudoir may be the best way to go if it's problematic with friends and family or prospective clients will not consider hiring you as a photographer because of it.

 

[Derrel]

That's right, it is only $1200... I don't know if it's worth the time and trouble spent on a website to bring in that amount of income.

I've seen Patreon... giving people money doesn't make someone an art patron, I think those using the site to do that are misguided or deluding themselves. I guess if people want to give you money, so be it, but then do you have to list that as income? and pay taxes on it?? If not for now I'd think the IRS will catch up to that site one of these days.

I don't know if what you're doing is boudoir or not but it seems like something you're not exactly proud of doing. I've wondered along the same lines about training in business and marketing etc. I remember you being in school but don't seem to have worked much in whatever field you studied. If you wanted to switch gears and make a living in photography that's challenging to say the least.

I don't know if you have a business plan, but I wonder if it wouldn't be better to figure out how to do photography paired with another type job or work as your photography business builds. It doesn't sound like boudoir may be the best way to go if it's problematic with friends and family or prospective clients will not consider hiring you as a photographer because of it.

 

[Derrel]

A quick bit of math shows that 350 people at seven dollars a month is $29,400 per year.

I really do not think that one dollar per month is worth going after at low numbers of subscribers.

 

[DGMPhotography]

Woo boy, a lot to unpack here.

First off, I don't shoot porn. I know you probably didn't mean that literally, John, but I don't think that's cool to say, regardless.



It's boudoir, and my intention has always been artistic. That said, maybe I am just insecure about it. I agree that I sound a bit hypocritical in saying that art should be seen, but I don't want it to be seen by my peers. I should be proud to show this work, but I am worried that my peers will just see lingerie, and decide that I am a pervert. For people who aren't involved in the arts, or don't understand the culture, then I can see why they may think that. What's wrong with trying to limit that from happening?

I got my bachelor's degree in business, but no amount of courses or reading are going to make for a successful business. I think you have to find what works for you and your specific market. I think aside from a small number of people, you can't reliably make a living doing just one thing in photography anymore. To pay the bills, you've gotta take those headshots, product photos, etc. The reason I have several brands and websites is so that I can appeal to different markets and try to maximize my profits doing the thing I love - photography. My main focus is weddings, because in my experience, it pays the best, but I still take a large variety of work. Same reason I am doing video now as well.

"Jack of all trades, master of none" is a phrase you've probably heard. But the full saying is actually "Jack of all trades, master of none, but often times better than master of one."

This discussion has gone a bit off the rails, but I do appreciate everyone's input. You've given me some things to think about. I'll probably hold off on Patreon for now and reevaluate all of this. Thank you.

 

[tirediron]

Woo boy, a lot to unpack here.

First off, I don't shoot porn. I know you probably didn't mean that literally, John, but I don't think that's cool to say, regardless.

Sooooooooo.... you're shooting images that people are being aroused by and your approach is, "Well, might as well make a buck off it?"... ummm... sorry Darryl, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.. I don't for a second think your intention is to create porn, but if you're going to take that approach, I honestly believe that it's going to hurt you.

It's boudoir, and my intention has always been artistic. That said, maybe I am just insecure about it. I agree that I sound a bit hypocritical in saying that art should be seen, but I don't want it to be seen by my peers. I should be proud to show this work, but I am worried that my peers will just see lingerie, and decide that I am a pervert. For people who aren't involved in the arts, or don't understand the culture, then I can see why they may think that. What's wrong with trying to limit that from happening?

If this is, or you're worried about this happening, then these people are not your peers. They may be associates, people you know, or even relatives, but they're not peers.

I have to admit, I'm puzzled by all these comments about retaining anonymity. Outside of a few photographers, almost none of whom I engage socially, my circle comprises primarily military & retired military folks, and people (almost exclusively male) from the trades, predominantly mechanics & HD mechanics. In other words, NOT creatives. They're aware of my work, and occasionally if one of them sees an image on my facebook feed they'll make a comment about an attractive female, but that's as far as it goes.

Another side to this coin is your clients; it's not going to do your business a lot of good if people learn that you're not proud of your work. The #1 thing you have to be as an entrepreneur, especially in a creative field is a shameless self-promoter. "Hey, I'm Daryll... this is my work!" If I were a female client for whom you'd done boudoir work and I find out you're trying to remain anonymous, I'm going to think there's something wrong with the work, and I'm hardly likely to recommend or use you again.

I got my bachelor's degree in business, but no amount of courses or reading are going to make for a successful business.

A BA in business is great if you want to work for a financial institution, insurance agent, etc. It does virtually nothing to set you up as an entrepreneur. Seriously, grab the Adult Ed catalogue from your local community college and see what you can find under small business management and entrepreneurship.

I think you have to find what works for you and your specific market. I think aside from a small number of people, you can't reliably make a living doing just one thing in photography anymore. To pay the bills, you've gotta take those headshots, product photos, etc.

I agree; I'm fortunate to live in a small town where people generally tend to expect generalization. I'm "the photographer"; I get calls for weddings, family work, headshots, events... name it. If I lived in a major center, it might be different, but for me, where I live, the generalist approach is the only option.

The reason I have several brands and websites is so that I can appeal to different markets and try to maximize my profits doing the thing I love - photography. My main focus is weddings, because in my experience, it pays the best, but I still take a large variety of work. Same reason I am doing video now as well.

On this, we disagree. Why? Let's say you've done a couple's wedding. They're very happy with the work. They also own a small business and want product photography done. Because they know you as a wedding photographer and NOT as a generalist, are they going to call you? Maybe, but in all probability they're going to look for a product photographer, and the one they choose might well not be you. I think it's fine to divide your work up into categories, but you need to make sure it all comes back to you. You want to people to think of your name when they need a photograph. Full stop.

This discussion has gone a bit off the rails....

True, but sometimes it helps to take a bit of a circuitous route. I think you're a good photographer, you've got passion, but I think you really, REALLY need to re-evaluate your business approach.