Manhole Cover HDR

[manaheim]

Why does it matter to anyone else but the OP which route was taken to get the final pic? Saying you can do the same thing some other way is fine. But thats not the way the OP chose to do it. Sometimes its just a nice exercise to play with the software to see what happens. Im glad to see manaheim that you did more than just run your mouth off. Your example is just as good as the original HDR. But if he did it your way then it wouldnt be posted here but in some other forum. This is HDR so thats the way it is.

It only matters if you care to understand how and when to best apply tools. I mean, I can most certainly hammer a nail in with the butt end of a screwdriver... it'll get the job done... but it's clearly not the best use of that tool, and there are clearly other tools better suited to handle it.

Would it be a "nice excercise"? Ummm... sure? I guess? But in the end, I honestly feel that's mostly just cover for the fact that the people concerned here really didn't know that a hammer existed.

Now no one should have any issue with that... after all, people come here to share and to learn, right? Right.

The issue I have is when someone says "So they're bashing in nails with a screwdriver! It's what makes them happy!" To me, that is just breeding and encouraging ignorance.

Just to be clear, I'm not calling the OP ignorant, but turning your back on the lessons that could be learned here would very much be ignorance.

 

[ghpham]

Why does it matter to anyone else but the OP which route was taken to get the final pic? Saying you can do the same thing some other way is fine. But thats not the way the OP chose to do it. Sometimes its just a nice exercise to play with the software to see what happens. Im glad to see manaheim that you did more than just run your mouth off. Your example is just as good as the original HDR. But if he did it your way then it wouldnt be posted here but in some other forum. This is HDR so thats the way it is.

The point is this picture need not to be in the HDR forum. You don't need to take multiple shots to achieve the same result. I don't believe many people who use HDR even know what it is and what it's for. Newbies galore uses the technique for something else altogether and call it HDR when it is not. Cartoon looking pictures are not true HDR. Call it any form of art BUT HDR!

 

[Fedaykin]

The issue I have is when someone says "So they're bashing in nails with a screwdriver! It's what makes them happy!" To me, that is just breeding and encouraging ignorance.

Just to be clear, I'm not calling the OP ignorant, but turning your back on the lessons that could be learned here would very much be ignorance.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Bynx]

It only matters if you care to understand how and when to best apply tools. I mean, I can most certainly hammer a nail in with the butt end of a screwdriver... it'll get the job done... but it's clearly not the best use of that tool, and there are clearly other tools better suited to handle it.

Would it be a "nice excercise"? Ummm... sure? I guess? But in the end, I honestly feel that's mostly just cover for the fact that the people concerned here really didn't know that a hammer existed.

Now no one should have any issue with that... after all, people come here to share and to learn, right? Right.

The issue I have is when someone says "So they're bashing in nails with a screwdriver! It's what makes them happy!" To me, that is just breeding and encouraging ignorance.

Just to be clear, I'm not calling the OP ignorant, but turning your back on the lessons that could be learned here would very much be ignorance.

You make some interesting points here. I wish the OP would step in here and clear things up. As for the right tool. Well who decides what the right tool is? HDR is probably overkill compared to a bit of tweaking in Photoshop but so what? Photomatix is a new program to many and using it more and more will give the OP more experience on using it properly. And learning to use a tool is not being ignorant. Bashing someone for using a tool is what breeds and encourages ignorance.
As for the reason people come here, I think many come not to share and learn but to put down the efforts of others who are learning. For some reason many people are very negative about the use of HDR. Thats fine, but those same people hang around the forum just putting down many of the examples posted. Whether they are good bad or indifferent. This post is a good example. The original post is quite good and looks great on my monitor. New Mac and New Monitor and its set up perfectly. The colors and texture of the grate are almost 3D in quality. Many times better than the original pic. While the subject isnt exactly a wall hanger it does show that HDR can be used for anything if the OP is so inclined. And if thats the route he/she chooses then suggesting another route is a bit arrogant to me. I use Photoshop all the time and know its power, but many either cant afford it or are intimidated not to use it. And one important thing to keep in mind. This is the HDR forum. Not the HOW TO DO IT ANY OTHER WAY forum.

 

[ghpham]

It only matters if you care to understand how and when to best apply tools. I mean, I can most certainly hammer a nail in with the butt end of a screwdriver... it'll get the job done... but it's clearly not the best use of that tool, and there are clearly other tools better suited to handle it.

Would it be a "nice excercise"? Ummm... sure? I guess? But in the end, I honestly feel that's mostly just cover for the fact that the people concerned here really didn't know that a hammer existed.

Now no one should have any issue with that... after all, people come here to share and to learn, right? Right.

The issue I have is when someone says "So they're bashing in nails with a screwdriver! It's what makes them happy!" To me, that is just breeding and encouraging ignorance.

Just to be clear, I'm not calling the OP ignorant, but turning your back on the lessons that could be learned here would very much be ignorance.

You make some interesting points here. I wish the OP would step in here and clear things up. As for the right tool. Well who decides what the right tool is? HDR is probably overkill compared to a bit of tweaking in Photoshop but so what? Photomatix is a new program to many and using it more and more will give the OP more experience on using it properly. And learning to use a tool is not being ignorant. Bashing someone for using a tool is what breeds and encourages ignorance.
As for the reason people come here, I think many come not to share and learn but to put down the efforts of others who are learning. For some reason many people are very negative about the use of HDR. Thats fine, but those same people hang around the forum just putting down many of the examples posted. Whether they are good bad or indifferent. This post is a good example. The original post is quite good and looks great on my monitor. New Mac and New Monitor and its set up perfectly. The colors and texture of the grate are almost 3D in quality. Many times better than the original pic. While the subject isnt exactly a wall hanger it does show that HDR can be used for anything if the OP is so inclined. And if thats the route he/she chooses then suggesting another route is a bit arrogant to me. I use Photoshop all the time and know its power, but many either cant afford it or are intimidated not to use it. And one important thing to keep in mind. This is the HDR forum. Not the HOW TO DO IT ANY OTHER WAY forum.

How about defining what HDR is? If you want to use the tool properly, than you need to understand what the theory behind it is. You keep saying that this is the HDR forum, but so many posted on here just aren't HDR photos.

Being stubborn and refusing to learn breeds more ignorance than anything else.

 

[Bynx]

ghpham, I looked back a few months and dont see any HDR posts from you. Or any from manheim for that matter. What is it you are offering here? Some HDR experience? The photo posted by the OP is HDR. If you see photos posted which arent HDR then take up your problem with them. Im as opposed to bad HDR use as anyone. Ive said enough about the negativity by people that dont do HDR and encourage others to not do it too so this is my last post in this OPs thread.

 

[ghpham]

ghpham, I looked back a few months and dont see any HDR posts from you. What is it you are offering here? Some HDR experience?

So I have to post an HDR photo in order to know what it's suppose to be for? If you look at the other forums, you will see that I have no photo posted as well. Does that means I don't know enough to criticize?

Manaheim illustrated it well by showing that this photo does not need HDR, and I'm just saying the same thing albeit perhaps more in a blunt way.

 

[Fedaykin]

ghpham, I looked back a few months and dont see any HDR posts from you. Or any from manheim for that matter. What is it you are offering here? Some HDR experience? The photo posted by the OP is HDR. If you see photos posted which arent HDR then take up your problem with them. Im as opposed to bad HDR use as anyone. Ive said enough about the negativity by people that dont do HDR and encourage others to not do it too so this is my last post in this OPs thread.

Classic "Why don't you show us yours?!" argument. In other words, an inane and useless one, an example of one's work or even any work is needed in order know what is good and what is not, what is done right and what is not, etc.

 

[Bynx]

Classic "Why don't you show us yours?!" argument. In other words, an inane and useless one, an example of one's work or even any work is needed in order know what is good and what is not, what is done right and what is not, etc.

Ya I think if you havent posted anything to be criticized then when it comes to criticizing others you should keep your comments to yourself and move on. And who makes you the expert on whats good or not? Being a putz doesnt make you qualified.

 

[ghpham]

Classic "Why don't you show us yours?!" argument. In other words, an inane and useless one, an example of one's work or even any work is needed in order know what is good and what is not, what is done right and what is not, etc.

Ya I think if you havent posted anything to be criticized then when it comes to criticizing others you should keep your comments to yourself and move on. And who makes you the expert on whats good or not? Being a putz doesnt make you qualified.

What a load of BS. So one HAVE to post a photo in order to be able to critique?? Why post a photo if you can't take the criticism? You still have not answer the question what a true HDR is. Way to be evasive :er:

My point is still valid.

 

[Fedaykin]

Classic "Why don't you show us yours?!" argument. In other words, an inane and useless one, an example of one's work or even any work is needed in order know what is good and what is not, what is done right and what is not, etc.

Ya I think if you havent posted anything to be criticized then when it comes to criticizing others you should keep your comments to yourself and move on. And who makes you the expert on whats good or not? Being a putz doesnt make you qualified.

Again with that pathetic argument, I just replied to it in the other thread. Frankly, I find it sad that I have to listen to such erroneous argumentation from a grown man. If you can't take honest criticism that isn't sugar coated like 95% of the rest that is given online, then you shouldn't be on the internet.

 

[Arch]

Guys pipe down.... you may not agree with Bynx, but lets keep it civil.

 

[manaheim]

You make some interesting points here. I wish the OP would step in here and clear things up. As for the right tool. Well who decides what the right tool is? HDR is probably overkill compared to a bit of tweaking in Photoshop but so what?

If you went to an automotive forum and posted about how you managed to figure out how to move 300 cubic yards of bark mulch using a Volkswagen Golf when you happened to have a perfectly operational pickup truck sitting in your driveway, everyone would say you were using the wrong tool for the job... and that would be a very accurate statement.

I think this forum has a lot of folks who spend an awful lot of time defending their choices (or other's choices) as artistic or simply a matter of preference, when in reality what we're doing is defending choices that really come from a lack of skills or experience. I'm not saying this to poke fun at the OP, I'm saying this to point out to you... Bynx... that you are doing these people a disservice by doing so.

Rather than giving them a helping hand and explaining "how while X or Y may be an interesting effect, and oh yes isn't HDR a cool thing, but did you know you could get the same effect from doing Z... now however if you had Q kind of situation an HDR would make total sense here, maybe you should try that to see what you get?"... you pat them on the back and say "ATTA BOY!" This is a crime in my eyes.

Who decides what the right tool is? Experts. That's who. Can people find new and exciting ways to use the tool? Sure. Should the experts be challenged? Absolutely. I'd say the surreal-effect HDR people are good examples of this. I don't personally love that effect... but HDR is CLEARLY the best tool for that particular job. HDR is NOT, however, the best tool for a contrast adjustment, and I think I demonstrated that quite clearly.

Photomatix is a new program to many and using it more and more will give the OP more experience on using it properly. And learning to use a tool is not being ignorant. Bashing someone for using a tool is what breeds and encourages ignorance.

I'm not bashing anyone and I've made that abundantly clear. I'm being firm and direct on a tough point, and I think you know that.

If I see someone I know banging in a screw with a hammer, I would respectfully and gently correct them and explain how to do it better. Turning and ignoring it would be doing a disservice to my friend. I'm doing no less here.

As for the reason people come here, I think many come not to share and learn but to put down the efforts of others who are learning. For some reason many people are very negative about the use of HDR. Thats fine, but those same people hang around the forum just putting down many of the examples posted. Whether they are good bad or indifferent. This post is a good example.

Oh stop. It's not even close to that. You're giving someone an attaboy and you're tweaked because I've jumped in and said "err... not the best application". How dare I?

Look, Bynx, I'll be honest with you... I've seen your posts on here a lot. You like HDRs. I get that. However, I would challenge you to look in the mirror and think carefully about this. Ever see anyone with hammer syndrome? When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail?

The original post is quite good and looks great on my monitor. New Mac and New Monitor and its set up perfectly. The colors and texture of the grate are almost 3D in quality. Many times better than the original pic. While the subject isnt exactly a wall hanger it does show that HDR can be used for anything if the OP is so inclined. And if thats the route he/she chooses then suggesting another route is a bit arrogant to me.

Wait... suggesting another route is arrogance? So, if there are multiple ways to get to the same path... and in some cases potentially some shorter ways... telling the person about them is arrogant?

Did you look at my post? I did exactly what the OP did in 10 seconds and didn't use a $100 tool to get it done. That's not being arrogant. That's educational.

I use Photoshop all the time and know its power, but many either cant afford it or are intimidated not to use it. And one important thing to keep in mind. This is the HDR forum. Not the HOW TO DO IT ANY OTHER WAY forum.

The membership drives how the forum is used. I've been here a long time and that's been the mantra. I'm a user just like you. I would propose that the point of an HDR Forum is not only to share what you've done but to understand the best and most effective applications of this very cool tool. This is, however, within the larger context of a photography forum (which this is) and therefore falling back to the master category of "Photography" (check the forum structure!), it is a PERFECTLY appropriate thing to do.

That's a technical argument, but here's another one...

If a forum is exclusively about encouraging the use of a tool, and not discouraging people from using a tool improperly, well... suddenly people on forestry forums will be cutting their grass with chainsaws and cutlery forums will be turning out their lights with steak knives. I don't even want to think what will be happening on the hunting forums.

Oh and to your point about "show me yours"...

Bynx, I have posted several HDRs here but usually in other people's threads as examples. (you know... teaching... helping... my crazy bizarre concepts in action again.) You have probably seen these but don't remember attributing them to me.

==1==

Note that HDR was used (and was necessary) here to correct for the problem of either overexposure of the exterior or underexposure of the interior.

In other words, to get this effect you NEED to use HDR. Therefore a pretty sensible application of the tool.

==2==

I chose to make this an HDR because a standard single exposure could not possibly capture the depth of tones of browns and rich warm feeling of the room. Even this image still doesn't capture it completely, but it comes close. As an added bonus, it allowed me to keep the ceiling skylight from blowing out.

Again, an appropriate application of the tool.


By the way, to everyone else... please do keep it civil. The conversation with Bynx is a long time in coming, IMO, and I would prefer to keep it open and flowing.

Also, to those of you who have an issue with "whether or not this is an HDR"... the term HDR is overused and somewhat silly. HIGH as in HIGH DYNAMIC RANGE (HDR) is a completely relative term. No one can say that any image isn't high dynamic range because there is no analog measure of what high or low is. It's not worth debating. People may or may not be able to achieve the same results without resorting to photomatix but none of us can really say something is or isn't an HDR. Not really.

 

[Bynx]

Youre right. I do recognize those pics and didnt attribute them to you. I thought they were good then as I do now and probably said so.
Why is the conversation with Bynx long time coming? I dont spend much time in this site and only visit the HDR forum since thats what Im mainly interested in at the moment. My only beef here is with people who say they dont like the post. They dont offer a suggestion of which slider to move or how to improve the part or parts they dont like. Now I find those same people dont even post pics of their own just come and criticize.
I will be the first to admit I use a hammer to drive in a screw. I will use a shotgun to kill an ant if I have to. I use whatever means I have available to get the results Im after. Because I use a shotgun today doesnt mean thats the only tool I have. Tomorrow I might use a pea shooter. Im sure its the same with the OP of this thread which we have taken over and for which I apologize sincerely. For the most part I see the posts here as simply exercises. Few are wall hanging material but the techiques learned will one day have the wall full. While I might consider one method overkill I wouldnt be presumtuous enough or even care enough to point out a simpler way to do the same thing. If something is getting learned then thats good enough for me. I certainly dont pat every poster on the back. Especially if what he has posted is crap. I just move on. There are enough people lined up to say how much they dont like things. They dont need another voice. But I will speak up when I see what I consider an interesting photo being shot down for no particular reason by some ignorant putz who probably doesnt even have a kind word to say about his grandmother. The bridge posts in the water post I find very nice to look at. The rusty manhole cover while not as interesting as a subject is an interesting example of using HDR. Overkill, yes, but nice to see it in use. How about we just agree to disagree and leave it at that. I said before you posted those two examples of yours that at least you put a picture where your mouth was. More than the others have done.

 

[Provo]

This is the HDR forum. Not the HOW TO DO IT ANY OTHER WAY forum.

I so agree with you here, but the problem is that sometimes people just can't help themselves to be nothing but annoying kind of like a tick.

But the best moments here come from the ones who like to critique everyone else work but when they post their own workings they often fall short of the same people they were giving input in the first place. Not saying in this post but in general. LOL it's almost as if they compliment the other people's work when they post their own I love this place.