Mentorship

[Soocom1]

What your talking about is a form of elitism. I am in an area that knows this WWWAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too well!

New Mexico was at the center of alot of photographic aspects throughout the 20th century. From the landscapes and sunsets, to the pueblos, old spanish architecture, to the eclectic folks who live here. Add in a healthy does of free spirited artists and the area was an art mecca. There was also a great deal of photogrammetric development here and satellite imagery is long steeped here as well. (Think Los Alamos Labs)
I said before that in a shot 20 years ago, one couldn't throw a cat without hitting a store selling photography supplies.

But with that came an elitist and very exclusive group of professional photographers who (I had a fair share of one on ones with them) wouldn't give you the time of day. They literally took the position that unless you owned a Hasselblad you weren't worth the scum poop they scraped off their shoes.

I knew for a goodly number of years folks in the photographic industry that simply looked at you as scum and treated you as such. mentoring was non-existent. If you wanted to work in a photography studio you had to had gone through 4 years of college with a post graduate in photographic design. Even some of the camera stores took the position that if your not holding a degree in Photography and Image Arts, that you were worthless. I had alot of experience with that garbage for years.

Now the UK's history is widely built on old school mentoring aspects that is steeped in tradition. Because i am across the pond, were more independent minded than that lot. So the particulars I am not high on, but grasp the concept.
what this sounds like to me is a club of folks who hold their nose at those not of the right pedigree of sorts.

I amy be wrong, but from where I come from at large, you learn by doing and find the folks who will mentor you because the love to. Not because they can get something out of it.

 

[pocketshaver]

That last example I did with tirediron,, that's how a lot of people seem to think it should be done. The genius who started this thread going, hes done nothing but this scam for 6+ years. And for being the one who actually stood up and called them out on the practice I was banned from their photo group.

Is it a sign of an elitist view from the last decade of instagram celebrities ruling an imaginary fiefdom/

 

[Christie Photo]

Well... I'm a bit lost. Were we not talking about how to secure an opportunity to shadow an experienced photographer?

The genius who started this thread going...

Isn't this your thread?

Oh well.

-Pete

 

[tirediron]

I'm confused now too....

 

[pocketshaver]

Instead of calling people out individually for their stupidity, I use the same method that kindergarten uses. Story book problems.

If you aren't smart enough to understand THOSE all I can ask you is can you spell the following words

Cat
Dog
Sun


And also makes me wonder if you need someone to cut your food for you.

 

[tirediron]

Instead of calling people out individually for their stupidity, I use the same method that kindergarten uses. Story book problems.

If you aren't smart enough to understand THOSE all I can ask you is can you spell the following words

Cat
Dog
Sun


And also makes me wonder if you need someone to cut your food for you.

Sorry, am I missing something? @pocketshaver - this feels rather like an attack on people who are responding positively to your thread....

 

[waday]

Well... I'm a bit lost. Were we not talking about how to secure an opportunity to shadow an experienced photographer?

The genius who started this thread going...

Isn't this your thread?

Oh well.

-Pete

I was confused at that, as well, but assumed he meant in the other forum with the photographer that’s taking advantage of being a “mentor”?

 

[DanOstergren]

Anyone who I have ever mentored for free already had a personal connection with me, ie a close friend or relative. Everyone else pays, unless I'm feeling generous and want to take on the burden of a student for free.

If someone is used to being paid for teaching their skills, it's actually not being a "Richard" to expect that someone bring something of value to the table when approaching a stranger about mentorship, unless said stranger has explicitly said "I'm looking to mentor a stranger without any compensation in return". Even the cost of booking a model and equipment or studio rentals doesn't quite come close to what many photographers charge to educate those looking for specific knowledge of a craft that they have mastered, for even one day. If you're so entitled that you feel you should receive free mentorship, I suggest you don't ask those who expect payment for their hard earned knowledge and then complain that they expect compensation. That's just dumb.

Even I had to do hours and hours of office work in exchange for being on set for high production photo shoots with an experienced photographer, and it was worth it. Expecting someone to just teach you their hard earned knowledge and experience for free out of the kindness of their hearts is more than a little bit absurd from my point of view. Maybe offer to assist them on photo shoots at the very least. You will learn a ton even just from doing that and watching.

 

[Derrel]

Instead of calling people out individually for their stupidity, I use the same method that kindergarten uses. Story book problems.

If you aren't smart enough to understand THOSE all I can ask you is can you spell the following words

Cat
Dog
Sun


And also makes me wonder if you need someone to cut your food for you.

Nice! ( sarcasm )

Here is a word : reciprocity.

 

[SquarePeg]

if you don’t like their mentor program requirements, don’t do it. Find another group that is more in line with your philosophy.

 

[DanOstergren]

Here is a word : reciprocity.

It bears repeating...

 

[weepete]

Reprocity is fine, but be upfront about it. If you're willing to teach someone but want financially compensated that's fine, that's what photography workshops are based on. But I wouldn't call someone that's only in that relationship a mentor, certainly in my neck of the woods that would be more commonly known as a tutor.

 

[tirediron]

...If someone is used to being paid for teaching their skills, it's actually not being a "Richard" to expect that someone bring something of value to the table when approaching a stranger about mentorship...

Agree 100% Dan, however my response was based on the interpretation of the OP's post which I took to mean that the mentor was simply using the student as a way to fund his own work, and throwing very little back in return. To me, that's definitely Richard-ish!

 

[pocketshaver]

...If someone is used to being paid for teaching their skills, it's actually not being a "Richard" to expect that someone bring something of value to the table when approaching a stranger about mentorship...

Agree 100% Dan, however my response was based on the interpretation of the OP's post which I took to mean that the mentor was simply using the student as a way to fund his own work, and throwing very little back in return. To me, that's definitely Richard-ish!

That's exactly what the situation is and was on that other spot on the internet. Something that ALOT of people who tossed their two peso's worth in refused to understand.

 

[Overread]

To go back to the first post:

If you truly want to work alongside somebody with experience and absorb their way of working you bring something to the table of your own, whether it be models, money, equipment, studio space, a toilet scrubber, or something else of value that gets you into close contact with them. Otherwise, you're just wasting their time. It's not like they can't already get all of what they need on their own; they need you far less than you need them; - in fact, they don't need you at all.

Im trying to actually figure HOW that actually constitutes traditional mentoring, or mentoring attitude. All I have ever seen is that a mentor isn't teaching people to get monetary benefit out of it. Ive never EVER seen it that the person being mentored is supposed to do those things.

Example, the stereotypical tale of young guy getting a clunker car and asking a professional mechanic friend or relative to help him restore it. Never was a "yeah ill teach you how to take the manifold apart IF you buy me 2,000$ in tools".
It was always "yeah I can show you how on the weekend or after school if you want. Since im like a professional mechanic paying customers come first and you buy any needed parts"

A few thoughts:
1) There is no right nor wrong way to mentor someone, the key is that both parties come to the table and agree to an agreement which benefits each party.

2) There is thus nothing wrong with a student paying a mentor/teacher (the terms often get used fairly interchangeably and you tend to see "mentor" used more so outside of formal school systems).

3) Your example of £2K worth of tools is somewhat extreme and likely beyond what many would consider normal; however at the same time a formal school class could easily cost you way more than that. So if that mentor were teaching you 2 or 3 days a week for months that value doesn't actually turn out too big when broken down into days/hours of tuition given.

Sometimes people teach for free, that's great. Other times they want an exchange of services or money or other forms of exchange. Basically saying that a student is not there to get their mentoring for nothing. This is perfectly normal, whilst many people are happy to teach for free, some often prefer students to put a commitment into things. Sometimes that's money; or labour; or skills etc... There's nothing wrong with that and heck if the mentor is already a professional working day to day then taking their own time to mentor/teach a student then the student doing work makes full sense. Many a person has learned under a mentor whilst also carrying the lights and bags; setting up gear; taking gear down etc...

There is no right not wrong approach, only a balance that is not abusive and which student and mentor agree to.