Nature Lovers, Sign the Petition

[Braineack]

I wanna see more outrage over this:

Muldrow Police K9 Dies Of Heat Stroke In Vehicle Fort Smith Fayetteville News 5newsonline KFSM 5NEWS
Four Police Dogs Have Died Recently After Being Forgotten in Their Cars People.com
K9 Hector Hialeah Police Department Florida
K9 Jimmy Hialeah Police Department Florida
K9 Nitro Stockton Police Department California

when police aren't too busy shooting dogs in people fenced backyards, or chained up, they leave their own inside hot cars to suffer horrible deaths--all without any criminal charges.

 

[EIngerson]

This is what real poaching is about in Zimbabwe: Where's the outrage? This lion issue is all about feeling good; feeling superior. And then getting back to the Bachlorette.
Poachers in Zimbabwe poison 87 elephants for ivory official says - CNN.com 87 elephants poisoned.
Poachers kill 300 Zimbabwe elephants with cyanide - Telegraph 300 elephants poisoned.

Interesting how this perfectly ties into the post Lenore made here:

Nature Lovers Sign the Petition Page 6 Photography Forum

Very true, but it kind of proves my point as well. The lion story is the fad of the week and media exploited it. Leading to a witch hunt for the dentists head. It's already been pointed out that the guide service put him on the lion. Yet people seem to think the hunter was at fault.

Trophy hunting, whether you agree with it or not, is a legal activity. And when someone goes on a guided hunt they have a few expectations;

1, That the guide service is going to put them on the animals they are hunting.
2, That the guide service is ethical and works within the laws and regulations of the area they guide in.
3, That the guide service has the expertise to provide the hunter with a successful hunt.

The hunter pays to have these expectations met. This particular guide service failed him and no one can wrap their head around who's truly at fault because they want a scape goat. Too bad its a little late for this dentist. All because people can't remove their emotion and look at the real facts.

It's a shame theirs a petition to extradite this guy, but I understand. It would be time consuming and expensive, not to mention fruitless to go after the real problem.

 

[tirediron]

...

And when someone goes on a guided hunt they have a few expectations;

1, That the guide service is going to put them on the animals they are hunting.
2, That the guide service is ethical and works within the laws and regulations of the area they guide in.
3, That the guide service has the expertise to provide the hunter with a successful hunt.

The hunter pays to have these expectations met. This particular guide service failed him and no one can wrap their head around who's truly at fault because they want a scape goat. Too bad its a little late for this dentist. All because people can't remove their emotion and look at the real facts.

It's a shame theirs a petition to extradite this guy, but I understand. It would be time consuming and expensive, not to mention fruitless to go after the real problem.

I'm going to disagree with some of your assertions here. The doctor was obviously an educated person, and any educated person would be aware that lion hunting, even government-sanctioned lion hunting is not going to be viewed favorably by much of the western world. Further anyone who is capable of breathing on their own has to be aware of the the political issues in and around Zimbabwe, and with the local economic climate, many people, out of desperation will do almost anything for money.

Anyone knowingly entering into this arrangement and placing all their trust in the guides without verifying things on their own is an idiot of the first water. It matters not a whit what the guides did or did not say. As the person with his finger on the trigger, he bears sole responsibility for his actions.

With respect to the matter of extradition, if it's demonstrated that he was aware that he was acting illegally, then absolutely he should be extradited. Just because another country's justice system is a little less pleasant than one's own does not give a person the right to violate that country's laws and get away with it. This is not unlike the caning incident in Singapore some years ago where the US government interceded on behalf of the student vandal... if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

 

[limr30 3]

This is what real poaching is about in Zimbabwe: Where's the outrage? This lion issue is all about feeling good; feeling superior. And then getting back to the Bachlorette.
Poachers in Zimbabwe poison 87 elephants for ivory official says - CNN.com 87 elephants poisoned.
Poachers kill 300 Zimbabwe elephants with cyanide - Telegraph 300 elephants poisoned.

Interesting how this perfectly ties into the post Lenore made here:

Nature Lovers Sign the Petition Page 6 Photography Forum

Very true, but it kind of proves my point as well. The lion story is the fad of the week and media exploited it. Leading to a witch hunt for the dentists head. It's already been pointed out that the guide service put him on the lion. Yet people seem to think the hunter was at fault.

Trophy hunting, whether you agree with it or not, is a legal activity. And when someone goes on a guided hunt they have a few expectations;

1, That the guide service is going to put them on the animals they are hunting.
2, That the guide service is ethical and works within the laws and regulations of the area they guide in.
3, That the guide service has the expertise to provide the hunter with a successful hunt.

The hunter pays to have these expectations met. This particular guide service failed him and no one can wrap their head around who's truly at fault because they want a scape goat. Too bad its a little late for this dentist. All because people can't remove their emotion and look at the real facts.

It's a shame theirs a petition to extradite this guy, but I understand. It would be time consuming and expensive, not to mention fruitless to go after the real problem.

I don't agree that the hunter shares the same level of blame as the guides, and I also don't think (and never said) that he should be strung up or thrown into a foreign jail. But I also am at a loss to understand how people think he is squeaky-clean and free of all responsibility. Everyone who knows more about the situation than any of us do all believe he knew what was going on, if not at the start then definitely by the end. And even if the hunt were completely legal from start to finish, even other hunters think it was suspect: Did Walter Palmer give Cecil the lion a fair chase We asked a hunter philosopher - The Washington Post

And once again, he did not have a permit. The guides said they had it sorted out but did he check? Did he look at the permit? Was he aware that the permit did NOT allow a lion kill in that area? Did he make sure everything they were doing was under the auspices of that permit? He has to rely on the guides to a certain extent, but someone with his hunting experience should know what's dodgy and what isn't, and should be experienced enough to not just blindly follow everything the guides say with perfect faith. Especially in a place with known issues with corruption! Was he a moron? Or he just didn't care?

 

[floatingby]

Very true, but it kind of proves my point as well. The lion story is the fad of the week and media exploited it. Leading to a witch hunt for the dentists head. It's already been pointed out that the guide service put him on the lion. Yet people seem to think the hunter was at fault.

Trophy hunting, whether you agree with it or not, is a legal activity. And when someone goes on a guided hunt they have a few expectations;

1, That the guide service is going to put them on the animals they are hunting.
2, That the guide service is ethical and works within the laws and regulations of the area they guide in.
3, That the guide service has the expertise to provide the hunter with a successful hunt.

The hunter pays to have these expectations met. This particular guide service failed him and no one can wrap their head around who's truly at fault because they want a scape goat. Too bad its a little late for this dentist. All because people can't remove their emotion and look at the real facts.

It's a shame theirs a petition to extradite this guy, but I understand. It would be time consuming and expensive, not to mention fruitless to go after the real problem.

I don't know how it's done elsewhere, but here it is the responsability of the hunter to secure all the necessary permits before going on a hunt, guided or not.

Not that I agree on the lynching mob running after the doctor, nor did I sign the petition, or think trophy killing is a respectable endeavor.

 

[EIngerson]

...

And when someone goes on a guided hunt they have a few expectations;

1, That the guide service is going to put them on the animals they are hunting.
2, That the guide service is ethical and works within the laws and regulations of the area they guide in.
3, That the guide service has the expertise to provide the hunter with a successful hunt.

The hunter pays to have these expectations met. This particular guide service failed him and no one can wrap their head around who's truly at fault because they want a scape goat. Too bad its a little late for this dentist. All because people can't remove their emotion and look at the real facts.

It's a shame theirs a petition to extradite this guy, but I understand. It would be time consuming and expensive, not to mention fruitless to go after the real problem.

I'm going to disagree with some of your assertions here. The doctor was obviously an educated person, and any educated person would be aware that lion hunting, even government-sanctioned lion hunting is not going to be viewed favorably by much of the western world. Further anyone who is capable of breathing on their own has to be aware of the the political issues in and around Zimbabwe, and with the local economic climate, many people, out of desperation will do almost anything for money.

Anyone knowingly entering into this arrangement and placing all their trust in the guides without verifying things on their own is an idiot of the first water. It matters not a whit what the guides did or did not say. As the person with his finger on the trigger, he bears sole responsibility for his actions.

With respect to the matter of extradition, if it's demonstrated that he was aware that he was acting illegally, then absolutely he should be extradited. Just because another country's justice system is a little less pleasant than one's own does not give a person the right to violate that country's laws and get away with it. This is not unlike the caning incident in Singapore some years ago where the US government interceded on behalf of the student vandal... if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

I agree with what you said to a point. In this case, I'm sure he understood the political issues. It's a fairly common occurrence for foreign hunters to go on guided hunts there. Enough to build a lucrative guide service. This company was not desperate and doing anything for money. They advertised themselves as professionals.

It's a far reach to say this man spent $50,000 for this service and didn't take the time to approach as you've described. I'm inclined to believe he did that research on many guide services and decided this one was the best. Yes, this is an assumption made on my part, but an assumption made with some logic.

I'm also assuming this guide service gave him some assurance that his expectations would be met and didn't follow through on it. I'm still placing my blame on the guide service here. I'd love to see the contract/agreement they had. Might answer a lot of questions.

 

[Buckster]

Not that I'd have been involved in a trophy hunt in the first place, but if I were the dentist, I hope I'd have questioned why we're luring the cat to some other spot to shoot it, instead of just doing the deed where we found it. Then again, I'm pretty big on maps and GPS doing lots of research before a big trip like that, and would have likely realized that we were in a wildlife preserve when the "luring away" started.

I think I also would have questioned why this wild cat was wearing a GPS collar. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have guessed it was a simple genetic mutation.

The petition, and facebook pages, such as this one, have done a fantastic job bringing this issue to the forefront - again the power of social media.

Have you seen Jimmy Kimmel's youtube video? Seen by millions?

I think that's a really good point about how and why this took off so big and so fast - social media is changing a LOT about the way we perceive the world around us, and how we react to it.

Personally, I think that's a good thing. I think the individuals in a culture benefit from being able to compare notes with each other instantly, voice their own opinions, to out liars, confirm facts, and so forth, and not rely solely on "the news" to disseminate only what some executive decides we should know about, and spin it the way they want it told.

This story brings to mind the blowup over the Texas cheerleader not too long ago who got raked over the coals for big game hunting a variety of animals such as giraffes and rhinos, then posing with her kills and posting the photos on social media, which resulted in another giant outcry.

Those outcries are saying something about our changing culture. Are we listening?

 

[EIngerson]

The lion story is the fad of the week and media exploited it. Leading to a witch hunt for the dentists head.

You are probably right, but this dentist is socially and possibly financially ruined. He might face jail time. You don't think that might act as a deterrent for other sick murdering sadists?

Trophy hunting, whether you agree with it or not, is a legal activity. And when someone goes on a guided hunt they have a few expectations;

That's the problem. It's ok to commit crimes if they are legal, what's right or what is moral doesn't factor in right? So if wife beating or incineration is legal or accepted in certain countries, well that's ok, yes?
Or is a lion just on this earth so we can kill them because man is the supreme creation?

First of all, I find your association of "sick murdering sadists" to hunters offensive.

Second, you have made your comments irrelevant by stating legal things are crimes. What's "right" or what is "moral" is your belief, NOT law. Your personal opinion, no matter how passionate you are, has no relevance to the situation.

Now do us all a favor. Go educate yourself on how things actually work and make a relevant point because all you've done so far is "spew stupidity".

 

[table1349]

As such, "trophy hunting" doesn't sit well with me personally. Doubly so for animals designated for protection, as this lion was.

Agreed. I can understand hunting for food but with the exclusion of endangered species.
A person who can kill an animal just for its head or for its skin is no different than a serial killer, child molester, or wife beater - preying on the defenceless. The same sick urges.

Try telling that to the families of:

Joseph Otero
Julie Otero
Joseph Otero, Jr.
Josephine Otero
Kathryn Bright
Shirley Vian
Nancy Fox
Marine Hedge
Vicki Wegerle
Dolores E. Davis

I'm betting that they would not see this dentist as being near the monster that Dennis Rader is.

Explain to the victims of Yova Kana Shaday how this dentist who killed a lion is just as bad as Shaday is for molesting them.

Are you going to have years of therapy to cope with the death of Cecil as this victims will? Will you spend the rest of your life waking up in the middle of the night reliving the death of Cecil as the families of the Rader survivors do remembering the horror of the deaths of parents, children, brothers, sisters, or family members now do?

While I agree with Buckster on the aspect of trophy hunting, this has gotten blown way out of proportion. And for those like Jimmy Kimmel for a few laughs and ratings.

 

[FeatherMonkey]

My only question if he was going to take the shot at night how was he going to determine whether it did or didn't have a collar?

Everything I've read implies he knew he shouldn't of shot a collared lion. So how was he going to determine that it was or wasn't then. Surely that's his responsibility, he knew it had been baited out, so guessing not identified.

 

[Designer]

The Internet launders outrage and returns it to us as validation, in the form of likes and stars and hearts.

Ooo...Ooo..

Can I copy and paste that? Please?

 

[Designer]

Sometimes it just takes one otherwise obscure incident to be the CATalyst that suddenly gets everyone's attention to a bigger problem.

(Sorry - couldn't resist. )

See Above reply.......Report at 9:00 a.m. for your dope slap.

Hey!

I inserted a zinger yesterday, and got no dope slap for my effort!

Sheesh!

Not that I actually NEED a dope slap, but it would be nice for someone to at least take a swing at me once in a while.

 

[Buckster]

Let's compare it to all the deaths of the Civil War, WWI, WWII, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, WTC, 9-11, and the great galactic wars of the Magellan Arm while we're at it, as Lenore's post explained.

That way, we can stop talking about THIS animal and THIS hunter and THIS story and THIS situation, and focus on something else. Changing the subject is a great way to deal with anything, after all.

Have we heard anyone chime in with the typical and classic copouts, "now's not the time to talk about it" or the famous, "we can't comment while it's still under investigation"?

 

[Designer]

This is what real poaching is about in Zimbabwe: Where's the outrage? This lion issue is all about feeling good; feeling superior. And then getting back to the Bachlorette.
Poachers in Zimbabwe poison 87 elephants for ivory official says - CNN.com 87 elephants poisoned.
Poachers kill 300 Zimbabwe elephants with cyanide - Telegraph 300 elephants poisoned.

Yup.

No sense of proportion.

At all.

 

[table1349]

Sometimes it just takes one otherwise obscure incident to be the CATalyst that suddenly gets everyone's attention to a bigger problem.

(Sorry - couldn't resist. )

See Above reply.......Report at 9:00 a.m. for your dope slap.

Hey!

I inserted a zinger yesterday, and got no dope slap for my effort!

Sheesh!

Not that I actually NEED a dope slap, but it would be nice for someone to at least take a swing at me once in a while.

Duly noted and corrected, Your appointment is for 9:05 tomorrow for your dope slap, right after Buckster receives his. Oh and while were are at it, you get an extra dope slap for pointing out you didn't get a dope slap for something you deserved. Got to love a tattle tale that tattles on themselves.