Need advice: Unhappy client from a photo shoot

[Parker219]

OP, lets see your contract you had with them with the names redacted.

 

[tirediron]

The Strobist Blog is probably the best one on the 'net... as well a TON of stuff on YouTube.

 

[NatalieNYC]

...Have a written contract that says they will get at least 10, 20, 30 or whatever number you agree on final edits. Then IF you give them more, then they will be happy.

That way they can't say that they didn't get enough photos.

Sorry Parker, this is NOT good advice. Guaranteeing ANYTHING in a photo shoot can be a recipe for disaster. Instead, in the agreement with the client, you state something (which your lawyer has reviewed and approved as being appropriate for your region) to the effect of, "While a session of this length and nature generally produces about XYZ images, because of the dynamic and uncontrollable nature of large groups I am unable to commit in advance to a pre-determined number. I will however provide you with a proof gallery which contains all of the images which meet my standard for quality and artistic merit" or similar.

The last bit is critical as well since it gives you an out for those clients who demand to see "ALL the photos".

Thanks for the solid advice. This is the first time this has happened to me, and I’ve done about 25 shoots to date. So I guess one of the big lessons learned here is that I have to start drafting up a contract/agreement in writing. I guess I’ll need a lawyer for this?

 

[tirediron]

Thanks for the solid advice. This is the first time this has happened to me, and I’ve done about 25 shoots to date. So I guess one of the big lessons learned here is that I have to start drafting up a contract/agreement in writing. I guess I’ll need a lawyer for this?

Definitely. There's a ton of stuff on line that you can use as a starting point. Draft up a few outlines and then take it to a lawyer who deals in contract law. Most lawyers will allow you to book a 30 minute consult appointment. Bring your drafts in and have them reviewed. Shouldn't cost more than one arm and both legs.

 

[NatalieNYC]

OP, lets see your contract you had with them with the names redacted.

This is my side business, all of my shoots have been paid in cash up until now and the agreement was through email stating the total amount to be paid on the day of the shoot, and that they would receive all the edited JPEG photos through a link. It’s very casual. Nothing much else.

 

[Parker219]

 

[Designer]

...and that they would receive all the edited JPEG photos through a link.

You agreed to ALL the (edited) JPEGs, and your client knows how to count. She doesn't know what is involved in editing, but that's not her concern, either. You said "all", and she wants all.

 

[Overread]

Remember the average person snaps happy snaps with their camera on their phone all the time and they are generally happy with mostof the photos they take, even though most are rubbish. They thus naturally assume that a "professional photographer" who snaps away just as much is taking prize winning photos every single time. Few realise that from 100 shots you might only get 10 really good ones worth touching up to give to a client.

Note that's a totally random set of numbers there purely for display purposes. Your actual "keeper" rate will vary based on the situation, your skills, your experience with the challenges present etc... Sometimes you might get a LOT more keepers and sometimes you might find you get a lot fewer. Hence the importance of the statments above regarding either under-estimating in general to give yourself a safe limit or not committing to any fixed number.
Both give you room to adapt to the situation, but they also help you weed out customers who "want it all" who will demand way more photos than you can sensibly produce. They are not clients you really want because they will often never be satisfied and have a higher chance to complain to get whatever they want.

 

[vintagesnaps]

It doesn't seem like a business, even a side business, if you take cash the day of and provide JPEGs of every photo you took. That's not how a pro photographer runs a business. You might be lucky something like this didn't happen sooner, and maybe it's just as well it happened now before you get any further into it.

Some of your comments and responses seem to indicate that you do not yet have the necessary skills to do this. Learn what you're doing first. You should know to go ahead of time or go early to figure out good vantage points, etc. You should already know all the stuff that you don't yet seem to have learned before you get into being paid as a photographer. I think it's a disservice to clients otherwise.

Try American Society of Media Photographers - Homepage or PPA for info. on contracts, licensing usage, etc. etc.

 

[NatalieNYC]

It doesn't seem like a business, even a side business, if you take cash the day of and provide JPEGs of every photo you took. That's not how a pro photographer runs a business. You might be lucky something like this didn't happen sooner, and maybe it's just as well it happened now before you get any further into it.

Some of your comments and responses seem to indicate that you do not yet have the necessary skills to do this. Learn what you're doing first. You should know to go ahead of time or go early to figure out good vantage points, etc. You should already know all the stuff that you don't yet seem to have learned before you get into being paid as a photographer. I think it's a disservice to clients otherwise.

Try American Society of Media Photographers - Homepage or PPA for info. on contracts, licensing usage, etc. etc.

@vintagesnaps - I never said that I provided photos of every JPEG that I took. That would be silly. I take lots of time to sort though and edit the photos myself and then submit the best from the day. It just happened that this shoot generated far less photos than normal, hence why client was not satisfied.

And I need to defend myself in saying that I do indeed have the skills to handle this. I do not call myself a 20 year veteran professional photographer - but more of a hobbyist level who is constantly learning. This business started as a favor for a friend and everyone liked my work and my name started getting around. 7 years later I manage to do around 10 shoots a year all based on referrals and some repeat customers. I encourage you to check out my work at NatalieLaurenPhotography.com and see for yourself.

 

[vintagesnaps]

I may have misread or misunderstood what was said about what was provided. Shooting this style it's necessary to get something even under less than ideal conditions; maybe you won't get as many shots as usual so you probably need to firm up what will be provided according to contracts, etc.

It looks like there's a need to be sure if you're doing shoots out and about that you're catching what end up being visual distractions before they get into the frame, and developing awareness of other people getting ready to walk into the scene before they walk into the viewfinder and end up an unwanted part of a composition. There seems to be inconsistency in the exposures; it might be worth looking through your portfolio and checking and maybe rethinking what's included or see if some further editing might be needed, etc.

Maybe doing a relatively small number of shoots over a number of years hasn't given you as much practice or skill development. I've done sports and events and I'd always feel a bit rusty at the beginning of the season even though I'm an experienced photographer. I think it's still necessary to practice and keep up the skill level. Maybe this is an opportunity to take a look at the photos provided and think about what the client didn't like and what could be done better/differently in the future (although there will be people with unrealistic expectations or complaints that may not be valid and it's necessary to figure out what to do in those situations).

 

[JonFZ300]

Without seeing the pics from the Bris, it's hard to give an opinion about whether you should refund her or not.

Since you offered your website as a way to check out your skills, I agree with vintage about in-frame distractions and exposure issues. It's easy to tell you don't do any recon before shooting. I would also add white balance issues to that, especially when you are shooting into the sun. I know tweeking WB in editing can add some artistic flair but there is no artistic consistency of that kind in your shots. White shirts are too blue, etc...

It seems like you're beginning to get defensive so I won't hammer the point. The business practices you mentioned and the pictures on your site don't say "professional" to me but if your friends and word-of-mouth people are happy with the shots, carry on. Cheers!

 

[NatalieNYC]

I may have misread or misunderstood what was said about what was provided. Shooting this style it's necessary to get something even under less than ideal conditions; maybe you won't get as many shots as usual so you probably need to firm up what will be provided according to contracts, etc.

It looks like there's a need to be sure if you're doing shoots out and about that you're catching what end up being visual distractions before they get into the frame, and developing awareness of other people getting ready to walk into the scene before they walk into the viewfinder and end up an unwanted part of a composition. There seems to be inconsistency in the exposures; it might be worth looking through your portfolio and checking and maybe rethinking what's included or see if some further editing might be needed, etc.

Maybe doing a relatively small number of shoots over a number of years hasn't given you as much practice or skill development. I've done sports and events and I'd always feel a bit rusty at the beginning of the season even though I'm an experienced photographer. I think it's still necessary to practice and keep up the skill level. Maybe this is an opportunity to take a look at the photos provided and think about what the client didn't like and what could be done better/differently in the future (although there will be people with unrealistic expectations or complaints that may not be valid and it's necessary to figure out what to do in those situations).

Thanks. I haven’t had someone call out those issues in my photos out before and I see what you mean, so thank you for that. I will keep it in mind for future.

This might be a silly question but if you can’t help people in the background (e.g. public space with lots of people) how do you avoid the visual distraction?

 

[NatalieNYC]

Without seeing the pics from the Bris, it's hard to give an opinion about whether you should refund her or not.

Since you offered your website as a way to check out your skills, I agree with vintage about in-frame distractions and exposure issues. It's easy to tell you don't do any recon before shooting. I would also add white balance issues to that, especially when you are shooting into the sun. I know tweeking WB in editing can add some artistic flair but there is no artistic consistency of that kind in your shots. White shirts are too blue, etc...

It seems like you're beginning to get defensive so I won't hammer the point. The business practices you mentioned and the pictures on your site don't say "professional" to me but if your friends and word-of-mouth people are happy with the shots, carry on. Cheers!

Not being defensive just trying to say that I don’t claim to be a professional photographer. I wish I could be but I have a full time job and a family. There’s just not enough time. I have been doing photography for a few years (self taught) and continue to learn along the way.
Regardless, thanks for your feedback. Points taken.

 

[Tropicalmemories]

This might be a silly question but if you can’t help people in the background (e.g. public space with lots of people) how do you avoid the visual distraction?

I'm a hobbyist and never do paid work - but I'd use a wide aperture to create a narrow depth of field in these situations.

Out of focus people in the background can create an appropriate backdrop that is not too distracting.

You either need a long focal length and a wide-ish aperture, plus lots of space, or a super bright aperture with a shorter focal length if space is tight.

I did a free pre-wedding shoot for a friend once (she wasn't going to use a professional photographer as funds were tight, so I thought I'd give it a go). It was a very stressful experience for me, and made me respect the pro's even more, and this was just for a good friend!

I used a 35mm f1.4 prime (on a crop sensor) for the head and shoulders shots where the background was busy, and a combination of a 60mm f2.4 and an 18-135 f3.5 zoom for the full length shots.

I chose the venue, and knew it well, and I chose the time to catch the golden hour at the end of the shoot. That's a luxury many pro's would not get. My partner was my assistant, helping with make up, posing advice and holding the reflector and off-camera flash on the end of a monopod. I had two bodies and all my batteries plus most my lenses. At the end of the afternoon I was totally exhausted!

I thought the results were good and was pleased while I edited the best ones. My friend was polite, but I could tell she was not thrilled.

They were technically good in my view, but they were looking at themselves, not my lighting, golden hour tones and blurred backgrounds - and I'd not really captured them at their best.

So that was my one and only attempt at a pre-wedding shoot.

Never again!