Photoshop Elements Question

[dandaluzphotography]

Hi,

I have a question about PSE 8 maybe someone can help answer.

I noticed when I have my RAW file opened in adobe camera raw as 16 bit, when I open it in PSE 8, a lot of editing tools are disabled, like the healing brush, clone stamp tool, etc...

Any idea why? My understanding is that opening it as a 16 bit file allows me to save it as a tiff file (lossless vs the lossy jpeg), which if I decide to print it, will look better. As far as the editing process, when would I remove small blemishes and things like that? As I mentioned above, those tools are disabled when opened as a 16 bit.

I feel like I am on the right track with this, but I am missing something.

Thanks,
Danny

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

Convert to 8bit and all those tools will be available.

 

[dandaluzphotography]

Thanks for the reply. 8 bit does give me those optipns, but i'd like to keep it as 16 for the better quality. Or am i missing something with that?

Danny

 

[clanthar]

Thanks for the reply. 8 bit does give me those optipns, but i'd like to keep it as 16 for the better quality. Or am i missing something with that?

Danny

You're missing something -- in 16 bit you should have access to tone manipulation tools like Levels and Curves (I'm assuming here -- I don't use Elements, but a similar situation exists with Photoshop).

Once you have tone/color adjusted the image, convert it to 8 bit for any additional processing and then final output. Here's what's going on:

Let's assume your final output is a print. A print has a limited tone response fixed by the whitest paper possible and blackest ink possible. Put the blackest ink on the whitest paper and you have the maximum tone-range for a print. Likewise the total color possible in a print is limited by the mixtures of colored inks. These two physical limits provide you with a whole lot less possible information than a 16 bit files can contain. It does you no good to have more info in the file if you can't move that info onto the final print.

We like to start with maximum info and be able to control the reduction process to final output. Therefore we like 16 bit files to begin the process. Consider this; the display you're looking at can't physically manage all the data contained in a 16 bit file -- you can't even see it.

You may want to archive away those RAW files however since at some time in the future you may chose to manage that process of reduction differently.

Take Care,
Joe

 

[KmH]

Those tools are not available in 16-bit mode because the calculating requirements to use them are to massive. Thus, Adobe® only lets them be used in 8-bit mode.

As Adobe® software engineers are able to streamline the calculating requirements, some of those tools will come available in 16-bit mode in a future release.

 

[dandaluzphotography]

Thanks for the reply. 8 bit does give me those optipns, but i'd like to keep it as 16 for the better quality. Or am i missing something with that?

Danny

You're missing something -- in 16 bit you should have access to tone manipulation tools like Levels and Curves (I'm assuming here -- I don't use Elements, but a similar situation exists with Photoshop).

Once you have tone/color adjusted the image, convert it to 8 bit for any additional processing and then final output. Here's what's going on:

Let's assume your final output is a print. A print has a limited tone response fixed by the whitest paper possible and blackest ink possible. Put the blackest ink on the whitest paper and you have the maximum tone-range for a print. Likewise the total color possible in a print is limited by the mixtures of colored inks. These two physical limits provide you with a whole lot less possible information than a 16 bit files can contain. It does you no good to have more info in the file if you can't move that info onto the final print.

We like to start with maximum info and be able to control the reduction process to final output. Therefore we like 16 bit files to begin the process. Consider this; the display you're looking at can't physically manage all the data contained in a 16 bit file -- you can't even see it.

You may want to archive away those RAW files however since at some time in the future you may chose to manage that process of reduction differently.

Take Care,
Joe

Hi Joe,

Thanks for your help.

I think I understand the editing portion of this now. The only thing that I should be manipulating with the 16 bit file is color/shadows/brightness etc... Then convert it to an 8 bit file. I tried looking around in the drop downs, but I do not see how to convert a 16 bit to an 8 bit.

If I am creating a pic to upload to the web, then it needs to be saved as a jpeg. What would be the possible uses of a tiff file if a printer can't print all the info in the file? I thought TIFF files were used because they hold more information and therefore render a better representation of what was captured.

Can I save an 8 bit file as tiff?

Thanks,
Danny

 

[clanthar]

If I am creating a pic to upload to the web, then it needs to be saved as a jpeg. What would be the possible uses of a tiff file if a printer can't print all the info in the file? I thought TIFF files were used because they hold more information and therefore render a better representation of what was captured.

Can I save an 8 bit file as tiff?

Thanks,
Danny

Hi Danny,

A TIFF file can be 8 bit. TIFF files avoid the compression applied in the JPEG format. JPEG compression is destructive -- it achieves its high compression rates by discarding data and manipulating the data in ways that destroy detail -- the damage is less likely to show on a low-res display (all display are low-res) than a print. This is beneficial for the sake of the Internet. If every JPEG being viewed on the Internet right now were uncompressed before transmission the Internet would seize up and die.

Here's an appropriate work-flow:
RAW capture and archive.
RAW to 16 bit TIFF and process.
Convert to 8 bit TIFF further process and print.
Convert to JPEG for WWW display.

Joe

 

[mwcfarms]

To convert it you go to image mode and convert it to 8 bit. You might also have to save as sRGB color profile the same way depending on your files. Then you can save a copy as a jpeg for web display.

 

[dandaluzphotography]

To convert it you go to image mode and convert it to 8 bit. You might also have to save as sRGB color profile the same way depending on your files. Then you can save a copy as a jpeg for web display.

Thanks!

 

[dandaluzphotography]

If I am creating a pic to upload to the web, then it needs to be saved as a jpeg. What would be the possible uses of a tiff file if a printer can't print all the info in the file? I thought TIFF files were used because they hold more information and therefore render a better representation of what was captured.

Can I save an 8 bit file as tiff?

Thanks,
Danny

Hi Danny,

A TIFF file can be 8 bit. TIFF files avoid the compression applied in the JPEG format. JPEG compression is destructive -- it achieves its high compression rates by discarding data and manipulating the data in ways that destroy detail -- the damage is less likely to show on a low-res display (all display are low-res) than a print. This is beneficial for the sake of the Internet. If every JPEG being viewed on the Internet right now were uncompressed before transmission the Internet would seize up and die.

Here's an appropriate work-flow:
RAW capture and archive.
RAW to 16 bit TIFF and process.
Convert to 8 bit TIFF further process and print.
Convert to JPEG for WWW display.

Joe

I get it. Thanks Joe.

Here's the weird thing though. My friend has CS5 and he can use all his editing tools on the 16 bit file. Is this a limitation of PSE?

Danny

 

[clanthar]

Here's the weird thing though. My friend has CS5 and he can use all his editing tools on the 16 bit file. Is this a limitation of PSE?

Danny

Yes. The increase in Photoshop's ability to process 16 bit files has been progressive. When Photoshop first made 16 bit files available it was like Elements is now -- limited to Levels/Curves and Color Balance. With each additional version the ability to use more tools on 16 bit files was added.

Joe

 

[doziergraphic]

Didn't read all teh above responses, but Elements does not support 16-bit. You must convert it to 8-bit.

 

[KmH]

I get it. Thanks Joe.

Here's the weird thing though. My friend has CS5 and he can use all his editing tools on the 16 bit file. Is this a limitation of PSE?

Danny

All of the tools, filters, and editing functions are not available in 16-bit mode when using CS5.

 

[dandaluzphotography]

Thanks for al the respnses guys! Very helpful!

Danny