Pros Opinion on a Newbie...

[Stilltime]

I never said never
I simply outlined the risk and a potential way where even a review of work can lead to a disappointment in results.

You based your example on people being idiots to make a point. Paying a photographer to do a job when you have not seen ample proof that they are capable of the job - idiotic. Taking a job based on showcasing your photos in a different area of expertise - idiotic. For both the client and photographer.

 

[Chairman7w]

My hang-up is performing a disservice ... getting paid for a level which you are not delivering.

I think we're all in agreement on that Seef.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say here that that's not what she's about.

 

[Stilltime]

If the customer is fully aware of the level of product ... then okay ... full disclosure ... this is who I am ... this is what I can deliver ... I just think it is wrong to peddle oneself as capable of delivering a level of skill and expertise which they are not capable of attaining ... thereby decieving the customer into thinking they are getting a Mercedes when the photog is only capable of delivering a Ford. (Not that a Ford is all that bad if that is what you are expecting.)

And to me, this has less to do with amateur photographers, and more to do with ethical business practices. Anytime you're in the business of offering/selling services, you run the risk of selling for the sake of selling, as opposed to selling what you can do.

 

[Christie Photo]

I've seen repeatedly on this site, a newby get on here EXTREMELY excited because a friend or someone may have seen their photos and asked them to shoot a wedding or party or portraits. ... I just don't get what's wrong with that as long as the consumer is happy with the end result.

I haven't read through this thread, so if I'm repeating somebody, I apologize.


The warnings are because there's a certain level of risk and a one-time opportunity at stake.

IF there is a catastrophic failure, some brides might say, "Oh well. I tried to skimp. I gambled and lost."

Others will cry, "My life is over! It's all your fault and I'm gonna hurt you!"

Everyone has to start somewhere. Just do it with your eyes wide open, knowing the full ramifications.

-Pete

 

[rufus5150]

I'm all for people doing weddings for close friends or family or whatnot. The photographer should know what they're getting into. I'm a big fan of people lying in the bed they've made, although I have to say I have some sympathy with the pros who have some strong opinions about people doing first time weddings without the proper training or gear. It's like telling someone who's only ever driven an automatic, putting them in an F1 car and telling them to drive at 200mph. You're not ready and chances are you're going to crash. But... if it will make the participants happy and get you experience, go for it. Just realize that those pictures with your name attached will follow you far past your ramp up days and you won't always be there to explain "oh, that's when I was learning." Photos tend to take on a life of their own after they leave your creative and distributive control. You have to at every juncture learn to live with that.

I do take some exception to this:

Anyway, producing great pictures is wonderful... but that's not the only important thing. Friendly attitude (which I question some of the people who've I've communicated on here), being on-time, good customer service skills, delivering the services or prints in a timely manner.... It's all important.

Without producing great pictures and producing them consistently, no amount of customer service is going to mitigate the damage terribly awful pictures will do to that business relationship or future business. It may not be the only important thing, but it is the thing on which all other factors depend. No product. No business.
When it comes to photography and professionalism, the professional must produce results and they must do so while mitigating factors which might otherwise keep them from producing those results. For a head shot photographer, the risk is generally lower because if you have a gear failure, you can redo the shoot (though there will be outliers who are working on very strict guidelines). There's a continuum of risk depending on the type of shooting you do... model shoot for a magazine? Think rented gear, space, time. Wedding and event photography are a hot button issue because the skill requirements to mitigate any potential risk are some of the highest in photography.

Know what you're getting into. Though it may sound like they come out of the woodwork saying 'you're not ready' and it sounding territorial, they're also speaking from experience. It's often to your advantage to read between the lines, even when someone might be being a jerk about it.

 

[Chairman7w]

Good 700th post, Rufus. Well said.

I'm all for people doing weddings for close friends or family or whatnot. The photographer should know what they're getting into. I'm a big fan of people lying in the bed they've made, although I have to say I have some sympathy with the pros who have some strong opinions about people doing first time weddings without the proper training or gear. It's like telling someone who's only ever driven an automatic, putting them in an F1 car and telling them to drive at 200mph. You're not ready and chances are you're going to crash. But... if it will make the participants happy and get you experience, go for it. Just realize that those pictures with your name attached will follow you far past your ramp up days and you won't always be there to explain "oh, that's when I was learning." Photos tend to take on a life of their own after they leave your creative and distributive control. You have to at every juncture learn to live with that.

I do take some exception to this:



Without producing great pictures and producing them consistently, no amount of customer service is going to mitigate the damage terribly awful pictures will do to that business relationship or future business. It may not be the only important thing, but it is the thing on which all other factors depend. No product. No business.
When it comes to photography and professionalism, the professional must produce results and they must do so while mitigating factors which might otherwise keep them from producing those results. For a head shot photographer, the risk is generally lower because if you have a gear failure, you can redo the shoot (though there will be outliers who are working on very strict guidelines). There's a continuum of risk depending on the type of shooting you do... model shoot for a magazine? Think rented gear, space, time. Wedding and event photography are a hot button issue because the skill requirements to mitigate any potential risk are some of the highest in photography.

Know what you're getting into. Though it may sound like they come out of the woodwork saying 'you're not ready' and it sounding territorial, they're also speaking from experience. It's often to your advantage to read between the lines, even when someone might be being a jerk about it.

 

[Christie Photo]

Without producing great pictures and producing them consistently, no amount of customer service is going to mitigate the damage terribly awful pictures will do to that business relationship or future business. It may not be the only important thing, but it is the thing on which all other factors depend. No product. No business.

But, ya know.... there is that big segment in between "great" and "terribly awful." And as long as I live, I'll never quite "get it" why so many are satisfied with the mediocrity of properly exposed images that are in focus.

Sadly, the best I can come up with is "Friendly attitude... being on-time, good customer service skills, delivering the services or prints in a timely manner." That and presentation.

Oh well.

-Pete

 

[Mgw189]

I am not a professional nor am I a newbie when it comes to photography. However I have heard more than one photographer make statements about the abilities of newer cameras and photoshop ruining the profession. It has gotten to the point where anyone can pick up a camera put it on auto and snap a decent picture. The cameras have evolved quite a bit. The skill comes from knowing the technical aspects and being able to reproduce quality images time and time again. In order to do this though you really have to have a pretty firm grasp on things like the use of ISO, SS, Aperture and White Balance at the very least.

 

[rufus5150]

But, ya know.... there is that big segment in between "great" and "terribly awful." And as long as I live, I'll never quite "get it" why so many are satisfied with the mediocrity of properly exposed images that are in focus.

Sadly, the best I can come up with is "Friendly attitude... being on-time, good customer service skills, delivering the services or prints in a timely manner." That and presentation.

Oh well.

-Pete

The left hand of my personal scale actually goes up to 'amazing' and 'mind blowing' and 'omfg *worship*' so 'great' might need a more lengthy and precise definition. I think the key is consistent, and I think the definition of great ultimately lies with the recipient. Most people aren't artistically inclined (which, btw, also explains the vast amounts of singing bass wall hangings and 'paintings' of dogs playing poker). Having done a recent survey of the "competition" (as it were) in this area, I can safely say that with the vast and immense bulk of craigs-list photogs, that 'great' may very well be regionally defined as properly exposed and in focus.

 

[DeadEye]

I will not take on a wedding ceremony as THE photographer as I am to inexperienced in this field.

Its about respect for the client.


On a different note~ The value of Photographic Services
I have been doing some Pro Bono stuff lately (Yes Free) for promotion of my work. The aim is to get more high end paying jobs of course. On one collaboration its doing very well as they know the value of these shoots as they have paid for this work in the past and that work is published.

On the other hand, I had a shoot lined up were eight models were to be done in a group shot, lying on the floor in a circle, in there studio with 8 foot ceiling. Well I showed up ½ hour early , with two boom stands, four 15 pound counterweights, laptop stand ,studio pack and lights. In short a truckload of studio gear to pull off this one advertisement shot. I was floored when they said ~ What are you doing here? The shoot was canceled this morning. So n So told everyone it is canceled .

Well that is the value of free. Free is not even worth a phone call.
.

 

[Christie Photo]

Having done a recent survey of the "competition" (as it were) in this area, I can safely say that with the vast and immense bulk of craigs-list photogs, that 'great' may very well be regionally defined as properly exposed and in focus.

No. Sorry to report. It's happening here too. It's rampant!

I just didn't want you to feel alone.

 

[Plastic]

I have not been taking photographs long enough to comment with any authority on this subject but the similarities between this and the arguments that go on between Plastic Surgeons and non Plastic Surgeons who do cosmetic surgery are to great for me to ignore. I had an old surgeon give me some advice in this reguard and I believe it may apply to this situation as well. He said two things. Do what you do well and people will always seek out your services, and bad competition is a good thing because it only highlights your abilities. Just a thought.

 

[Lynnzora]

I totally felt like I've been attacked by the photographer maphia in this thread. I'm not upset though. It's kind of funny. I sure do know how to start the thread huh. Haa haa... 3 pages in one day. Anyway, I didn't know until now why other people are so invested in what the next person is doing. Some of these people on here have probably sent some poor children off of this website crying. Quite frankly it's a free market and not my business what the next person is doing. If my son turns 5 and wants to take pictures of people for 25 cents with his handy dandy spiderman digital camera that mommy's going to buy him... I support that. And it's not anyone elses business. But I'm sure you'll get those people who would flip. How dare you let him take pictures for a profit. Lets go beat up the kids with the lemonade stand too because how dare they take money from the grocery stores right?... What if a poor little ole lady hires him for her daughters wedding and he messes it up. Well if she hires a 5 year old then that's on her. You get what I'm saying. People have to take responsibility for their choices. I think it's no one's business what someone is charging for AS LONG AS THERE'S NO FALSE ADVERTISING OR REPRESENTATION. Saying you're a pro when you're not... If someone want a non pro pic that's their business.

This has been a joke. Not because of the issue at hand because I can feel the pain of some of you photographers who are obviously effected by the issue (and know how to express that like an intelligent adult without crusifying the person asking the question). What makes it sad is that people can't listen. We've had people comment towards the end who didn't even read the whole thread. I'm still wanting to know where all of the references of how horrible it is for a newbie to take on a wedding, etc... I never said that. I specifically remember saying that I was taking pictures at my brother's wedding... who has also hired a professional. I also never said I was charging people to make a profit on my photography at this point. What I said is that I have people who seek me out (not all of them are family or friends) to do them favors to drive to Vegas (7 hour drive) to get pics at a big party. OR for me to dress up drive 2.5 hours to do someone a favor of sitting outside a booth taking pics of children. These aren't people who are expecting Annie Leibovitz portraits. They can't afford a pro. Any one of you would look at what they have to offer and roll your eyes. I don't mind doing the favors because I'm just starting off BUT I'm not going to drive myself into the poor house while doing others a favor. Although it does have some benefits to me too. But it's not inapproprate to ask for something... Gas for my car. If I'm driving to Vegas... that far away. I'm not going to take my car. I'd be taking a rental. How about a meal. Shoot can I get some McDonalds or something lol. It's not a matter of getting paid for the skill its about not taking advantage of someone... showing appreciation that they are doing something or you for practically pennys. They don't have a problem with it and neither should you. They know what I'm capable of. That I'm not a professional... YET. But honestly you shouldn't speak on a situation or a person until you know their story. You talk about devaluing the art of photography. The person you've been focusing your negative comments at is currently studying photography day and night and weekends (24/7) when I'm not at work or with my son. I'll just leave it at that. It's really no point and going any further because people hear what they want. The next comment will be how taking a picture for someone (who without your help, wouldn't be able to have one) is ludacris. I should refer him to a professional... OR someone will say something about "how dare anyone as a newbie take on a wedding. You're going to mess it up. Again when did I say I was going to do weddings... lol... Letting a newbie take pics for a special event is like someone of the streets (a non doctor) performing surgery OR someone without a license building a house... A person can die a house can fall down on someone. Are you kidding me? lol

Again I repeat. If you're doing what you're supposed to as a pro photographer you aren't going to lose your clients. That's delivering beautiful pictures, a nice attitude (some may want to work on this), being timely, etc... You're clients won't go anywhere trust me. I speak also as a past client. As a model I worked with TONS of photographers. I knew the quality photog was going to be a good $500 at least for an hour shoot with make-up artist, stylist, etc... and that it was a deal. That was as a college student. Although it was a good deal, I didn't have it but it was that important to me so I saved. Yes I did slip and see $50 or $60 deals on Craigslist and sometimes you get what you pay for and other times you find a diamond in the ruff but. It made me appreciate the pro that much more and realize that I'd rather save and go to a pro. So keep that in mind... And don't worry about what the next person is doing. Put your energy into your business and not the next persons and watch things flourish for you.

 

[Overread]

I am not 100% sure but I think there might be a bit of a communication breakdown here - the nature of the thread (as I see it) is a generalist question with generalist answers from most - your work and your practice have not really come into this and yet your responding as if it is.
Granted you are in a similar boat to those that this discussion is aimed at, but because its a generalist question your getting the generalist answers - that of don't rush into it, work as a ghost or second shooter for a while first - get more practice.

Also re this point:

People have to take responsibility for their choices.[/quote
this is very true, but society today (especailly but certainly not limited to the US) is one where people are encouraged not to do this. If things fail people are encouraged to sue for money (because that is where the lawyer gets their paycheck from). That can be damaging or even crippling to some one just starting out (and might not even have any signed contract or such for even limited protection let alone any insurance).

 

[Stilltime]

Lynnzora, I'm sorry you feel attacked, but I don't see how it was personal toward you in any of the posts (and I just re-read the whole thread, too). I see a lot of people speaking about things that are perhaps paralleling your experiences (like the wedding thing), and perhaps you took it personally?

In any case, they're just opinions. Do what you want with them. I don't necessarily agree with some of the views expressed here either, but it's not personal (and if someone wants to hold a personal grudge against me because I might accept gas money to do a "favor" [which hence forth shall be my code word for amateurs accepting pro bono/low cost jobs ] at a friend's birthday part or something, meh, I could do without them then).

I strongly believe that the amateurs who take learning jobs along way are not taking food out of the mouths of professionals. There is not that much market over lap when you consider the budgets each are catering to. A person with a 500-1000 dollar budget for photos is not going to suddenly jump to a 5000 dollar package, regardless of the difference in quality. They're going to find the best they can 500-1000.

And in regards to misrepresenting skills, or competency in one field and taking jobs in another... well, I totally agree. But like I said above, I think that's more of an ethical business practices thing, than a photography thing. It's just basic common sense not to go booking a hockey game if you're used to working in a sears portrait studio. Duh.

So don't take it personally. Take what you want, and leave the rest.