Sharpening and Noise

catchlight · Jan 18, 2013

Hey, guys.

So, I'm working on taking shots of people, and I have found that sometimes two similar images will react different to sharpening. I notice this particularly in the eyes. I sometimes feel it's a crap shoot whether the eye will become crisp/sharp or grainy/noisey. What causes this difference, other than perhaps a focus issue?

Juga · Jan 18, 2013

catchlight said:
Hey, guys.

So, I'm working on taking shots of people, and I have found that sometimes two similar images will react different to sharpening. I notice this particularly in the eyes. I sometimes feel it's a crap shoot whether the eye will become crisp/sharp or grainy/noisey. What causes this difference, other than perhaps a focus issue?

I am no expert but I am learning along the way as well. I believe the problem may be your ISO setting. What are you using and what type of lighting?

TCampbell · Jan 18, 2013

See: LensRentals.com - Have You Seen My Acutance?

Read the full article, but pay attention to figure 1. It's a series of 5 bold sets of lines. The first set really is sharp. The second and are deliberately not sharp AND the 4th and 5th sets of lines are really the 2nd and 3rd sets of lines again, except they've been sharpened. Notice that the ends are developing serifs that aren't supposed to be there as a by-product of sharpening.

Then look at figure 2. It's yet another set of 5 lines except these are finer and less bold. Again, the first set really is sharp and that's for reference. #2 and #3 are progressively software and #4 and #5 are the "sharpened" versions of #2 and #3. BUT... THIS TIME #2 could be salvaged to create #4, but #3 could NOT be salvaged and resulted in #5.

The problem is that when you sharpen, the software needs to be able to find clean separation between the bits of detail. If the detail is starting to blur together then the software can no longer really distinguish the detail for purposes of sharpening and the image wont really clean up like you want.

Sharpening always increases noise. Preferably if the image is only very slightly soft, the amount of sharpening is so low that the noise isn't noticeable. If you're not getting the results you want (because the area doesn't lend itself to sharpening) then you'll just keep generating more noise.

joshua_ · Jan 18, 2013

I'm new to all of this catchlight, so I probably can't help with an answer, but I was wondering if you might have a couple of photos you could show as examples so that I might learn from what you are asking here.

Thanks

joshua_ · Jan 18, 2013

I think I understand so no need for the photos.

Thanks for your input TCampbell. I read many of your replies and hope you know that your time is appreciated.

Thanks

catchlight · Jan 18, 2013

@Juga - I'll get back to you on my ISO. The light was good, but I was on Aperture priority, so perhaps it adjusted.

@TCampbell - Thank you. It's late, so I didn't finish it, but I will tomorrow. Hopefully it'll help me out out!

@joshua_ - I'll still post the eyes I'm talking about to get a better idea. I was too lazy earlier to boot up my desktop to get to Lightroom

KmH · Jan 18, 2013

Noise Reduction and sharpening are 2 sides of the same coin.
There are several image sharpening techniques, and noise reduction should always be done first.

Unfortunately, Lightroom does not have the tools needed to do all the various sharpening techniques.
The experts at Pixel Genius LLC who wrote the software that is Lightroom's Sharpening/Noise Reduction panel wrote a book on the subject - Real World Image Sharpening with Adobe Photoshop, Camera Raw, and Lightroom (2nd Edition)

One of Pixel Genius LLC's other experts wrote another book I have and recommend for Lightroom 4 users - Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 4 Book: The Complete Guide for Photographers

Some of the other techniques I mentioned above are like High Pass filter sharpening, Luminosity blending mode sharpening, LAB sharpening, and several others.
Sharpen Images In Photoshop With The High Pass Filter
Sharpening in Photoshop -- Part IV

Benco · Jan 19, 2013

As far as noise reduction goes Neat Image does a good job.
Neat Image - best noise reduction for digital cameras and scanners

catchlight · Jan 19, 2013

So I assumed my ISO was on auto. It was, in fact, not on auto...but rather 1600. So, switched it to 100 and played around thru 800ish. Kinda helped, but not entirely.

Also, I'm not really in a place to get Photoshop. Would PS Elements be okay? That's pretty cheap. I also have Photoshop 7, if that would work. I spent money on Macromedia Studio 8 for Web Development last year, so I was really hoping to just work mainly in Lightroom, as I feel it has the tools I need. I also have spent a bunch of money on my new camera and accessories.

Anywho - here are two portraits of my dad. Disclaimer: these have been for the purpose of experimenting with a real person before taking headshots for my fellow actors, so don't think he's bringing these into an audition room any time soon :lol:

Rooftops and chairs don't really make appropriate backgrounds - bokeh or not, haha.

The first one was at an ISO of 1600, the second at 100. So that's probably not the issue. Do I have a case of the "expectation's too high"?

I did do some editing, but I suppose I should bring this to the Critique forum if I were to ask for help on that, so let's keep it at sharpness I suppose. Although, if any of the editing things detract from the sharpness, please let me know.

Could the lighting just be the issue? They are both pretty overcast-y days, which I thought would be good. Perhaps the light is TOO diffused?

Thanks, everyone!

joshua_ · Jan 19, 2013

OK, I thought I'd try to see how I could do.

I'm just a new guy, but thought I'd try for fun.

catchlight · Jan 21, 2013

I had already done some retouching, so if you'd like the original for fun, I'd be happy to post.

Hopefully gonna take some pictures today, so I'll work on those eyes. I'll probably ask for some C&C in the galleries.

KmH · Jan 21, 2013

If you want the eyes to 'pop', get some more light (fill) into the eye sockets.

In both photos you posted his eye sockets are somewhat dark because the light is mainly coming from above his head. His eyebrows are casting shadows in his eye sockets.

A good size piece of white foam board is often enough to reflect sufficient light into the subjects eye sockets.
Elmer's Acid-Free Foam Boards, 20 x 30 Inches, 3/16-Inch Thick, 2 Boards per Pack, Bright White (902015)

Better yet is something like

Westcott Photo Basics 304 5-in-1 Reflector Kit

catchlight · Jan 21, 2013

Thanks - I was trying a foam board...but I think it was a bit small or something. Couldn't figure out how to bounce the light well. However, I purchased a reflector kit today! So when I get that it, I'm gonna go take some shots and see what I get :]

CA_ · Jan 24, 2013

I've been using PS for years (since I was a kid), and Sharpening / Noise Reduction are indeed of the same cloth, but I use neither. They are very destructive, and any sharpening they may bring almost always look artificial, and plain terrible. Same with noise reduction, it is just a somewhat intelligent blurr.

Ultimately, if I'm resorting to either of these tools, it means I should just simply re-shoot.

Derrel · Jan 24, 2013

CA_ said:
I've been using PS for years (since I was a kid), and Sharpening / Noise Reduction are indeed of the same cloth, but I use neither. They are very destructive, and any sharpening they may bring almost always look artificial, and plain terrible. Same with noise reduction, it is just a somewhat intelligent blurr.

Ultimately, if I'm resorting to either of these tools, it means I should just simply re-shoot.

Whaaaaaat???? If your sharpening looks "plain terrible"...you're doing it wrong!!!