Shooting B&W in Raw

[robb01]

I took a black and white class yesterday. The instructor advised to shoot it in raw, using black and white. My question is, the images were in color when I transferred and converted them on my pc.


Is what the lcd shows you just a desaturated raw image while shooting in black and white in raw?

 

[Compaq]

Your camera just shows you a black and white compressed jpeg on the lcd screen. Since you're shooting raw, all information is there when transferred to your computer, and they show up in colour.

 

[KmH]

I recommend you strive to gain a better understanding of how a digital image is made:

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/photography-beginners-forum-photo-gallery/253945-what-pixel.html

 

[clanthar]

RAW files can't be B&W -- not possible. If your instructor doesn't know that..... hum?

Joe

 

[robb01]

RAW files can't be B&W -- not possible. If your instructor doesn't know that..... hum?

Joe

Im sure he just meant being able to view a bw image on the screen, he knows what raw is.

My question was in essence, when shooting in raw in the monochrome setting, what was being shown on the lcd.

 

[Kerbouchard]

My question was in essence, when shooting in raw in the monochrome setting, what was being shown on the lcd.

All of your picture control settings, including contrast, sharpness, etc.

As far as what is being shown to you when you transfer your image to your computer, it depends on what software you use. If you use Nikon Software, all the settings will carry over. If you are using a third party option, some may try to approximate it, but none will give you the same result.

If you want to use Photoshop or another third party option, but still want your settings to carry over, you would most likely need to shoot RAW +JPEG. If you don't want to do that, just use your Nikon preview to approximate what it will look like and then process it in your software of choice to taste.

 

[KmH]

My question was in essence, when shooting in raw in the monochrome setting, what was being shown on the lcd.

There is no Raw monochrome setting. There is only a JPEG monochrome setting.

Raw images cannot be shown on the rear LCD. Only JPEGs, and JPEG histograms, can be shown on the rear LCD.

 

[ann]

Hm, i know I made a comment here. Ok, which of you deleted it

 

[robb01]

My question was in essence, when shooting in raw in the monochrome setting, what was being shown on the lcd.

There is no Raw monochrome setting. There is only a JPEG monochrome setting.

Raw images cannot be shown on the rear LCD. Only JPEGs, and JPEG histograms, can be shown on the rear LCD.

Well, I know for a fact Im shooting in raw, and yes I can set it to monochrome while shooting raw.

So im guessing that what is being shown is just the cameras .jpg interpretation of bw that is being shown

 

[Kerbouchard]

That is correct. KmH is a little literal when it comes to what a RAW file is, which is just a bunch of 0's and 1's...but then again, that's all a JPEG file is, too. They both need to be interpreted before they can be displayed on a screen. The image that you see on the back of your LCD is the RAW file's 0's and 1's being processed using the Picture Control Settings from the camera.

My question was in essence, when shooting in raw in the monochrome setting, what was being shown on the lcd.

There is no Raw monochrome setting. There is only a JPEG monochrome setting.

Raw images cannot be shown on the rear LCD. Only JPEGs, and JPEG histograms, can be shown on the rear LCD.

Well, I know for a fact Im shooting in raw, and yes I can set it to monochrome while shooting raw.

So im guessing that what is being shown is just the cameras .jpg interpretation of bw that is being shown

 

[photo_will]

That is correct. KmH is a little literal when it comes to what a RAW file is, which is just a bunch of 0's and 1's...but then again, that's all a JPEG file is, too. They both need to be interpreted before they can be displayed on a screen. The image that you see on the back of your LCD is the RAW file's 0's and 1's being processed using the Picture Control Settings from the camera.

There is no Raw monochrome setting. There is only a JPEG monochrome setting.

Raw images cannot be shown on the rear LCD. Only JPEGs, and JPEG histograms, can be shown on the rear LCD.

Well, I know for a fact Im shooting in raw, and yes I can set it to monochrome while shooting raw.

So im guessing that what is being shown is just the cameras .jpg interpretation of bw that is being shown

You are looking at a jpg thumbnail that gets stored inside the raw file. If you import your raw file into Lightroom, for example, you will see that jpg before the raw file gets processed and then the jpg thumbnail gets replaced. It is part of Lightroom's ability to convince us that it is faster at processing raw files.

 

[Derrel]

Set your camera to shoot in RAW + JPEG Fine Compression, Medium Capture size, and Monochrome. The in-camera created JPEG images will be captured in Black and White. Try setting the D90's image sharpening to Medium-High, and set the Tone Curve setting to AUTO.

Different image editing and viewing software, or different image profile settings, will change how the RAW files are shown once loaded onto a computer. If the application is set to show images in their AS-SHOT mode, chances are very good that the software will show the NEFs as black and whites. When I want black and white images, I will always shoot in RAW+ JPEG, in B&W or Monochrome setting, often with the sharpening set reasonably high, and usually using a Sepia Tone color effect and a Yellow Filter effect dialed in; not every camera uses the same nomenclature for the specific settings. Some cameras say B&W, others say Monochrome, some have filter effects like Red, Yellow, Green,and Orange filters, others do not, some offer image "toning", like Sepia, Cold Tone, Neutral,or Cyanotype.

There is a tendency in photo forums for people who have NEVER ACTUALLY EXPLORED in-camera B&W shooting to preach about how the "best way" is to always shoot in RGB Color, then convert later at the computer. Uhhhh, no, not by a long shot....that is "one way", but it is far,far from the best way because evaluating both lighting and exposure and composition of a full-color image is a damned sight WRONG for the evaluation of an image that is going to be seen in B&W. B&W images need entirely different lighting than full-color images do....even different compositions and camera angles...for the beginner or even intermediate shooter, shooting with the camera set to capture and to DISPLAY the images as B&W on the back of the camera is by far the smarter way to learn what it takes to create a good B&W final photo. Good lighting for full-color images is quite often very BAD lighting for B&W images...the low-ratio, flat,even lighting that looks so nice for RGB color images usually looks incredibly dull for B&W images.

By shooting in RAW + JPEG, Monochrome, you get the best of all possible worlds. And, you create better B&W images, because your exposures and your in-field or in-studio reviews are all based on evaluating BLACK AND WHITE images!

 

[ann]

That is very interesting Derrel. i for one would have been one of those who would say, shoot it in color and then convert in pp.

Perhaps it is because i have spent most of my photo life doing only black and white and tend to think in grayscale and wanted better control with pp.

I will have to give your suggestion some thought and run some test to discover what are the options.

 

[BuS_RiDeR]

Personally... I shoot everything in color and convert to B&W or Sepia afterwards in Gimp.

 

[Derrel]

Ann,
Your years of experience as a B&W shooter is what "allows you to think" in grayscale, which is decidedly NOT the case for the vast majority of younger or beginning photographers, most of whom have been raised in an entirely full-color world...full-color newspaper photos, full-color magazine photos, all TV, all motion pictures, everything in full, glorious color. So, for an experienced B&W worker, like yourself, there are decades' worth of associations with B&W images--both making them, and viewing them.

However, for the newcomer, or the younger person, who has basically grown up in a world of full-color images everywhere (newspapers, TV, movies, internet,product packaging,etc.) there are a large number of variables that are virtually unknown to them. Shooting in RAW + JPEG, Monochrome Mode also preserves FULL control in the post-processing stage, since the RAW images will be captured in full R-G-B color at either 12- or 14-bit depth, depending on the camera; it is ONLY the JPEGs created in-camera will be irreversibly in B&W.

The huge benefit with shooting B&W mode in-camera for the beginner is that he or she can literally SEE a B&W image on a screen, right at the moment, and make the needed changes to exposure or composition, or camera positioning. Or to the type and position of the light. For example, Speedotron's Super Silver (metalized silvered) umbrellas make beautiful B&W portraits, because they create a significantly higher degree of specular reflections on human skin that either softboxes, or satin,or white umbrellas create....on the nose, cheeks,forehead,etc... when all the color is removed, those specular highlights add HUGE amounts of shape/contour/depth information in even a soft-lighted, B&W portrait. When the same umbrellas are used to shoot a full-color image, that same degree of specularity is often too much for subtle effects. The same goes for other light sources: 36x48 inch softboxes often create excessively FLAT, DULL, SHAPELESS lighting on images shot in color and then just simply converted to B&W. Truly successful B&W photography depends much,much more on the light's contrast, direction, and specularity/diffuse nature than color photography does.

20 years ago, I heard a TV interview with a veteran Hollywood director of photography. His basic premise in the interview was, "Well, he [the film's director] insisted that we had to shoot the picture in black and white, and our first day's rushes were so bad that I realized I didn't know the first thing about lighting for black and white. So, I called up an old friend who had many many black and white pictures, and met with him, and he told me a number of things I was unaware of." That TV interview has stuck in my mind for a long time. One of my "book mentors" was Gary Bernstein, Liz Taylor's exclusive portrait artist for many,many years. He always said that he liked to use slightly smaller light sources when the final image would be run in B&W, and to use higher lighting ratios most of the time. Good advice, I think. The Hollywood director mentioned that for his B&W film lighting setups, he felt that lighting ratios that were three to five times "steeper" than for color filming was about right for the look his director wanted to achieve.

Anyway---RAW + JPEG Monochrome is my preferred method with a d-slr. I get a B&W image, sharpened pretty heavily right off the card, which makes focus evaluation much easier once the images are downloaded to the computer, and gives me a good approximation of how the final image will look. Both Canon and Nikon images of 12-13 MP, scaled down to the MEDIUM-size, with sharpening set the High or Medium-High, give me a pretty good feel for what the images needs when reviewing on the back of the camera. Down-sizing the image from Large JPEG to Medium also give me about the size I actually WANT for many uses...if it's done right, the images look super.

The beginning shooter needs to see his images as monochrome/grayscale/B&W so he can learn how to light and compose for B&W. That's my point of view.