So.. this is a rant about a model who didn't pay for a shoot and expects un-watermarked images.

[photoguy99]

Wise beginners pay to have actual good models.

 

[manny212]

I'm sorry I just don't understand this whole thing . I've been a model going on 30 years now , ( yea started at 19) , and this just sounds like a test to me .

Define TEST ? What we as models need to do from time to time to update our books (Portfolios) .

Now in my career I've tested to many times to count, and this is how it works .

Agencies have relationships with " testing " photogs. These photogs derive their income from charging the models . I.e. 300 bucks for 3 looks , just a hypothetical .

Said photogs sometimes move on up and become fashion, catalog or commercial photogs , at which point "most " will stop testing .

I've never signed a model release for a test as this is not a HIRED JOB , but a test !!!

So yes I pay 300- 450 for a test do you few looks and typically get 4-8 prints .


I'm sorry just don't get the difficulty here , If she doesn't pay , she gets nothing .


Btw I've never gotten an image back with a watermark on it LOL.

 

[joeymas]

"The whole business of models paying the photographer always feels off to me. "

So... we are a charity in place to make sure every single person we come into contact with as wonderful photos free of charge? ok ok ok... that is just me being a wise guy.... but the reality is this.... It is not for us to make the call on weather or not this person will succeed as a model. It is our job to take and deliver great photographs.

I am against TFP all together because all of these guys doing free work makes it harder for professionals to get paid. You should have charged her, shot her, delivered the product and moved on.

Models need free photographers as much as photographers need free models. If you have the money to pay for all your models, well done you. Buy yourself a cake.

Why would I need a model? I am not a casting agent or an art director.

Here is the thing, if you wanna go out to the park and play "Model, Photographer" then go for it. When I do any type of commercial work, the models are picked, dressed and on set when I show up. Other than that, if they need shots done right according to agency standards... they are welcome to come to the studio and purchase a shoot.

Reading through this thread, I think I've found the line between pros and amateurs.

If the difference is really what I think it is, never again will I ever consider making a business out of photography when I get better.

Dave, lets stop for a sec. You are 100% right in what you said. We all take photos for different reason and with different goals. I am not against shooting for fun, but I don't call it work or give it a justification like "TFP" I like to call it "practice".

 

[Vtec44]

So how often does a beginner have a studio or access to a set?
Do beginners practice on dolls until they are good enough to charge every model?

Hmmm....photogaphy is tough.

When I first started, I just make friends with a lot of hot looking people.

 

[JacaRanda]

Manny would you pay Ned 300-450? If so, Ned I will be your manager and help you book some tests

Did you pay that much for tests when you first started modeling?

This modeling / photography thing is tough and weird.

 

[DavidVote]

So how often does a beginner have a studio or access to a set?
Do beginners practice on dolls until they are good enough to charge every model?

Hmmm....photogaphy is tough.

When I first started, I just make friends with a lot of hot looking people.

Or just meet new people in general. The park, the mall, where ever. That only works after you built a good enough portfolio you could show them so they won't be too skeptical.

Good enough portfolio isn't really needed if you are really good at talking to people and give them a good pitch.

 

[Forkie]

"The whole business of models paying the photographer always feels off to me. "

So... we are a charity in place to make sure every single person we come into contact with as wonderful photos free of charge? ok ok ok... that is just me being a wise guy.... but the reality is this.... It is not for us to make the call on weather or not this person will succeed as a model. It is our job to take and deliver great photographs.

I am against TFP all together because all of these guys doing free work makes it harder for professionals to get paid. You should have charged her, shot her, delivered the product and moved on.

Models need free photographers as much as photographers need free models. If you have the money to pay for all your models, well done you. Buy yourself a cake.

Why would I need a model? I am not a casting agent or an art director.

Here is the thing, if you wanna go out to the park and play "Model, Photographer" then go for it. When I do any type of commercial work, the models are picked, dressed and on set when I show up. Other than that, if they need shots done right according to agency standards... they are welcome to come to the studio and purchase a shoot.

Reading through this thread, I think I've found the line between pros and amateurs.

If the difference is really what I think it is, never again will I ever consider making a business out of photography when I get better.

Dave, lets stop for a sec. You are 100% right in what you said. We all take photos for different reason and with different goals. I am not against shooting for fun, but I don't call it work or give it a justification like "TFP" I like to call it "practice".

TFP shoots are a valid exercise and are used for a variety of reasons. They are used for, as you say, practice, but they are also used for testing new cameras, lenses, lighting, studios and for models to test poses, outfits, make-up, different looks. Particularly for people new to photography or modelling. They are for mutual portfolio building. Not financial gain.

They are used at every level of skill from amateur to seasoned, published professional.

Just because no money is exchanged, doesn't make the session any less work, any less valid or any less professional and exchanging services without exchanging money is a very common business practice. Your elitist attitude about "Playing model/photographer" might impress some people, but it is wholly arrogant.

 

[JacaRanda]

If I find out I can get a few hundred bucks from a beginner model - forget the birds and ducks and geese and hawks; I'm going strictly for chicks. Glad I kept the softbox and stand thingies.

 

[Forkie]

I'm sorry I just don't understand this whole thing . I've been a model going on 30 years now , ( yea started at 19) , and this just sounds like a test to me .

Define TEST ? What we as models need to do from time to time to update our books (Portfolios) .

Now in my career I've tested to many times to count, and this is how it works .

Agencies have relationships with " testing " photogs. These photogs derive their income from charging the models . I.e. 300 bucks for 3 looks , just a hypothetical .

Said photogs sometimes move on up and become fashion, catalog or commercial photogs , at which point "most " will stop testing .

I've never signed a model release for a test as this is not a HIRED JOB , but a test !!!

So yes I pay 300- 450 for a test do you few looks and typically get 4-8 prints .


I'm sorry just don't get the difficulty here , If she doesn't pay , she gets nothing .


Btw I've never gotten an image back with a watermark on it LOL.

Manny, you are describing a different thing. Testing is not the same as TFP. TFP is trading services for images. Trade/Time For Photos. The photos are the compensation for both parties' time and no money is exchanged.

There is no expectation from either party for useable images on a test (although there can end up being some) because either a photographer, model or agency is paying one or more of the other to test equipment, a new concept or a model's calibre. That's why it's called a test.

 

[manny212]

Manny would you pay Ned 300-450? If so, Ned I will be your manager and help you book some tests

Did you pay that much for tests when you first started modeling?

This modeling / photography thing is tough and weird.

It might seem weird , but it is a very needed niche in this industry . Do remember that not every Tom , Dick or Harry can start testing for an Agency . These peeps have probably been assisting working photogs for a while , you just don't pick up a camera , go to an agency and start testing working published models LOLOL.

Would I pay Ned ? Don't know his work so I cant answer that .

When I first stater the agency would pay the photog , it would go on my account and then as I stated working I would be taken our of earnings .

Problem as I see it is that this whole "MODELING" thing is way misunderstood as well as exploited by some less than scrupulous people out there . My agencies have always looked out and protected me . Then again , Ford, Willi, Elite, Next just to name a few are not fly by nights . Just my two cents

 

[joeymas]

"Your elitist attitude about "Playing model/photographer" might impress some people, but it is wholly arrogant." - My tear sheets are on-line for viewing at anytime.

My problem is that when a person calls my studio for a quote and they reply with... "oh some guy on Mayhem said he would do it for free." My answer is that you will get what you pay for and good luck with it."

 

[DavidVote]

"Your elitist attitude about "Playing model/photographer" might impress some people, but it is wholly arrogant." - My tear sheets are on-line for viewing at anytime.

My problem is that when a person calls my studio for a quote and they reply with... "oh some guy on Mayhem said he would do it for free." My answer is that you will get what you pay for and good luck with it."

OFF TOPIC:

This photo you posted on your profile looks really odd. Was it on a green screen or something?

 

[joeymas]

There are so many people in forums that would absolutely adore moving photography from hobby to professional, but yet when professionals offer advice and information they tell us we are wrong. It does not make sense to me....

 

[photoguy99]

Increasingly there are talented, capable, photographers who will work for free. Many of them just like hanging around with pretty girls. Of course, increasing at a somewhat faster rate, there are the other sort of photographer.

Increasingly, there are terrible, inexperienced models who will work for free, or even pay. Most of them have big dreams and very little else.

 

[DavidVote]

Increasingly there are talented, capable, photographers who will work for free. Many of them just like hanging around with pretty girls. Of course, increasing at a somewhat faster rate, there are the other sort of photographer.

Increasingly, there are terrible, inexperienced models who will work for free, or even pay. Most of them have big dreams and very little else.

You live in bellingham Washington? Western is there and I might attend it later this fall. If that happens, we should meet up and shoot photos!

Back on topic, I shoot for free because I like photography for photography. Demanding money for it makes me feel like it lost it's essence for me.

But of course, its also many people's bread and butter and I respect them for that.