So, we demo'd 6Ds over the last week, and ugh, what was Canon thinking

[fjrabon]

So, as a lot of our 7Ds and 5DIIs are reaching the end of their life cycle, we've been trying to get a handle on what to move into for our next wave of upgrades at work. In a lot of ways the 6D looked near perfect, as it would allow us to go almost entirely full frame, the auto focus system seemed promising compared to the 5DII. We were hopeful that we could upgrade the bulk of our failing 7Ds and 5DIIs to 6Ds and then just have a few 7Ds purely for sports and a few top end 5DIIIs for our higher end work.

Basically, to me this is perhaps a bigger flop of a camera than the 60D was in comparison the the D7000.

First, pure image quality is fine. But pure image quality on a 5D classic is fine too. You don't upgrade modern full frame cameras for image quality. But I just wanted to get that out of the way. It's nice, but so is jsut about every full frame made by Canon or Nikon.

First, the autofocus system is not particularly good. It's slightly better than the 5DII, but nowhere near the 5DIII. It will 'focus' in low light, like Canon says, in that it will tell you it has focused, but the images are almost always fairly out of focus in real world usage.

Next, it claims 4.5 fps. That's already on the low end for sports. But this is made worse by the fact that it actually rarely seemed to achieve that. It seemed to routinely be at more like 3.5-4 fps in actual usage

No built in flash? is this a pro camera or a consumer camera? Decide? THis didn't so much bother me as it just seems weird, as we only use pocket wizards and OCF at work, but still, it's just strange.

Build quality wise, it feels cheap. It's about the size of a 7D, more or less, but weighs substantially less. Balance on a 70-200 f/2.8 IS II L was off. It almost felt like you were holding a hollow shell.

X sync speed of 1/180? Are you freaking kidding me? Like I didn't even know cameras with that kind of sync speed were even made any longer.

You got rid of the joystick in it's near optimal position for an inside the wheel control? Seriously? Like the joystick focal point control was the ONE THING that made the 5DIIs autofocus system workable. This camera's system ain't much butter. Now, the button to move it is inside the aperture control ring, which makes the aperture control ring even more useless, and basically forced into lock at all times if you're changing focal points. When your ergonomic design means that a photographer has to choose between controlling the focal point and controlling aperture, you've screwed things up.

We knew that they had moved to SD cards, but as a Canon studio that has a crap ton of CF cards, this camera needed to own to overcome that disadvantage. Obviously this might not matter to many who are buying this from a 60D. But it does bring up a point I'll come back to. Who is going to buy this thing? Nobody is going to switch from a 5DII to it. Nobody is going to switch from Nikon for it. Heck, I doubt anybody will give up their 7D for it. It's basically an upgrade just aimed at 60D users? Seriously?

Did I complain about the auto focus already? Yeah, it sucks. The low light claim seems to be bogus. Even though it has 11 points, their spread is even smaller than the 5DIIs barely adequate 9 point system.

Adding in the Q button was nice, as that was something I always missed when going back and forth between the 7D and 5DII. Literally I'd pick up the 5DII and say 'where the crap is the Q button, oh yeah.' However, much of that is mitigated by the less convenient location of the joy stick.

why go to SD cards when you're only going to give a single slot? People love dual slots. Why just 1? It's not a deal breaker, but why? It made sense with CF cards, but now it just seems lazy.

One tiny thing I love is that you can now feel the difference between the ISO control button and the rest. Simple thing, but I really liked that a lot.

SO those were specific notes I made. Overall, it's just a, I don't get it type of feeling. Who are they targeting with this camera? It's $2700 with the kit lens. APS-C owners are going to have to update their lenses if they're trying to get them to move up. Plus, despite being long in the tooth, the 7D is in a lot of ways a better camera. It's too expensive to entice many t4i owners. maybe 60D owners, they're literally the only people I can see consistently moving into this camera.

Further, I cannot envision a single person who is going back and forth between this camera and the D600, which is **$700** cheaper with the kit lens. The D600 DESTROYS the 6D in auto focus, both in points and accuracy and speed. the D600's high ISO performance is better and shoots faster. It's just a plain better camera in basically every respect. Well, Canon's ISO button placement is better, but that is literally the ONLY positive I can find for the 6D. The 6Dt has ONE (1) cross type sensor. And no, despite whatever Canon's claims are, the other points didn't become magical. They're completely average non cross type points. And there are only 10 of them (excluding the 1 cross type in the center) and they're clustered even tighter than the D600 (which was already pretty tight for a full frame).

So, Canon is really expecting people to buy this camera? Like built in wi-fi and GPS is going to be something that sells it despite it costing $700 more than the D600, and being easily bested in just about every single way?

We wanted to buy this camera. We wanted to buy like 15-20 of them. Instead it looks like we'll be buying a couple more 5DIIs, 5DIIIs and 7Ds. This thing is a bit of a joke, given the price point and what it lacks. It's not a terrible camera, it's a terrible camera for the price point, given the competition.

 

[molested_cow]

Why not just get Nikon if Canon disappoints? Opps, wrong place to make this suggestion!

 

[Overread]

Eh Canon has a problem in that their marketing department is very overly aggressive in protecting higher value cameras by generally crippling anything lower than them. The 6D sounds like its being a big of a modern 300D in that they just crippled it way too far for the market slot they tried to make for it; especially as Nikon appears to have decided on a whole generation ahead of Canon for specifications in this market slot.

The only saving grace for Canon is that jumping to Nikon would likely cost as much if not more, than the difference between a 6D and the 5DMIII - so anyone in such a position would likely just throw down the extra money for the 5DMIII.

 

[fjrabon]

Eh Canon has a problem in that their marketing department is very overly aggressive in protecting higher value cameras by generally crippling anything lower than them. The 6D sounds like its being a big of a modern 300D in that they just crippled it way too far for the market slot they tried to make for it; especially as Nikon appears to have decided on a whole generation ahead of Canon for specifications in this market slot.

The only saving grace for Canon is that jumping to Nikon would likely cost as much if not more, than the difference between a 6D and the 5DMIII - so anyone in such a position would likely just throw down the extra money for the 5DMIII.

I sort of get that, but who is going to move to a 6D? That's what I don't get. I don't think 5DII owners will. maybe some 5D Classic owners. APS-C owners will be fairly neutral, unless they bought full frame capable glass from day 1. For many it might be cheaper to simply sell off their canon gear and change to a D600 if they don't own much full frame capable glass.

 

[fjrabon]

Why not just get Nikon if Canon disappoints? Opps, wrong place to make this suggestion!

Well, our studio has about a quarter million dollars in full frame canon glass. So I don't think we will be switching. But if it was just me, an individual owner, and I couldn't afford a 5DIII, yeah, I'd switch.

The 5DIII is an incredible camera though. I can't say enough about it. So this isn't just Canon hate. I just do not understand the 6D.

 

[Overread]

Eh Canon has a problem in that their marketing department is very overly aggressive in protecting higher value cameras by generally crippling anything lower than them. The 6D sounds like its being a big of a modern 300D in that they just crippled it way too far for the market slot they tried to make for it; especially as Nikon appears to have decided on a whole generation ahead of Canon for specifications in this market slot.

The only saving grace for Canon is that jumping to Nikon would likely cost as much if not more, than the difference between a 6D and the 5DMIII - so anyone in such a position would likely just throw down the extra money for the 5DMIII.

I sort of get that, but who is going to move to a 6D? That's what I don't get. I don't think 5DII owners will. maybe some 5D Classic owners. APS-C owners will be fairly neutral, unless they bought full frame capable glass from day 1. For many it might be cheaper to simply sell off their canon gear and change to a D600 if they don't own much full frame capable glass.

6D is clearly not aimed at the 5DMII market - that is what the 5DMIII is aimed at. Yes its a higher price, but upgrading always costs more sadly and if they want better then the MIII is where they have to go.

I can see crop sensor users moving up to the 6D if they want a cheaper "new" fullframe DSLR and not a second hand 5D or 5DMII. The thing about glass is also not as big an issue. If they are serious enough for a 6D chances are they'll have a few more serious lenses and there are only around 9 or so crop sensor only Canon lenses (a few more if you include 3rd party options). So it shouldn't be all that crippling (asides if they went for a 5D they'd still have the same problems).

I can see the market for the 6D, I just feel that Canon missed the boat with the features to make the 6D attractive enough in its own right as opposed to making it a lesser camera; as opposed to Nikon who are clearly determined to get this market segment.

 

[fjrabon]

Yeah, it seemed like they meant to make this such that not only was it clearly inferior to the 5DIII, which is understandable, but they seemed heck bent on making it inferior to the 5DII as well, which makes no sense to me. It seems like it should have been positioned such that all the 5DII owners who can't stomach the cost of the 5DIII could still give Canon their money for the 6D. Instead, what I think will happen is you'll have a lot of 5DII owners who simply don't upgrade to either and stick with their 5DII. I mean our studio is going to buy new 5DIIs because it makes no sense for us to have that many 5DIIIs and we sure as heck aren't buying 6Ds.

With the D600, Nikon made it at least tempting for D700 owners who couldn't afford the D800's price tag (or didn't want the ginormous file size). They gave an option for owners of aging D700s who weren't going to buy a D800.

 

[Sw1tchFX]

I used a D600 on a small gig last week in a super dark space. I usually use D4's in the situation I was in, but I wasn't getting paid and I didn't want to carry anything. The sensor kicks major ass, but the AF in the dark outside of the center 9 points pretty much just doesn't work without the AF-assist on a speedlight. The grip is also too chintzy, it was just really uncomfortable all the time.

I've toyed around with a 6D, ergonomically it's 100x better than a D600, and it pairs up with the Sigma primes really really well. I'll be trying that one out next time I do a freebie thing.

 

[fjrabon]

I used a D600 on a small gig last week in a super dark space. I usually use D4's in the situation I was in, but I wasn't getting paid and I didn't want to carry anything. The sensor kicks major ass, but the AF in the dark outside of the center 9 points pretty much just doesn't work without the AF-assist on a speedlight. The grip is also too chintzy, it was just really uncomfortable all the time.

I've toyed around with a 6D, ergonomically it's 100x better than a D600, and it pairs up with the Sigma primes really really well. I'll be trying that one out next time I do a freebie thing.

Having used them both, basically the 6D's auto focus system is like if you were to take the outside points that are on the D600, and made every point like that, except the one central point. I will say that one central point is extremely accurate. If I had to use the 6D, I honestly don't think I'd ever use anything other than the one central point unless I was in really bright light.

I didn't mind the feel of the D600 in comparison to the 6D. But perhaps I'm also just used to the feel of the D7000 with a grip.

I don't so much mind the way the camera feels in the hand, though it is way inferior feeling to the 7D. However, I just really, really, really hate that the joystick is inside the aperture ring, given how much you have to use the focus control pad, because of having very few points that are also tightly clustered.

 

[rexbobcat]

omg like worst camera ever.

Canon's marketing is actually working just as I assume they wanted it to.

"WOAH, the 6D makes me want to vomit and then drown myself in bleach. Looks like I'm just going to have to save up for the 5DIII."
Or
"Finally, a simple full frame camera with good image quality without being overloaded with features."

I honestly don't understand what the problem is. I'll probably get one, because I freaking HATE the ergonomics of the 5D and the 5dII (although the Mark III is a bit better), and because the sensor is supposedly a bit better in terms of ISO and such. That's the thing. If the sensor was worse than the 5DIII then I'd be like "meh", but since it is apparently better, I can live with the awful, dreadfully awful performance in other areas, because hyperbole is easy and cheap on the internet.

Coming from the 60D, it should be a great step up, and when it comes to needing faster AF I'm just going to sell my 1DII and buy a Mark III.

Everybody is ALWAYS complaining. There are several people that I talk to are complaining about the D800 because it has too many megapixels. My god first world problems. Seriously.

I would like the features of the D600 to be included in the 6D, but they're not, so I'm not going to ***** about it.

 

[fjrabon]

omg like worst camera ever.

It's amazing how anyone ever survived in the history of ever without a D4 or 5DIII.

Canon's marketing is actually working just as I assume they wanted it to.

"WOAH, the 6D makes me want to vomit and then drown myself in bleach. Looks like I'm just going to have to save up for the 5DIII."
Or
"Finally, a simple full frame camera with good image quality without being overloaded with features."

I honestly don't understand what the problem is. I'll probably get one, because I freaking HATE the ergonomics of the 5D and the 5dII (although the Mark III is a bit better), and because the sensor is supposedly a bit better in terms of ISO and such. That's the thing. If the sensor was worse than the 5DIII then I'd be like "meh", but since it is apparently better, I can live with the awful, dreadfully awful performance in other areas, because hyperbole is easy and cheap on the internet.

Coming from the 60D, it should be a great step up, and when it comes to needing faster AF I'm just going to sell my 1DII and buy a Mark III.

Everybody is ALWAYS complaining. There are several people that I talk to are complaining about the D800 because it has too many megapixels. My god first world problems. Seriously.

I would like the features of the D600 to be included in the 6D, but they're not, so I'm not going to ***** about it.

If you hate the ergonomics on the 5DII, I don't see what you'd like better about this camera. The only real major differences are the Q button (which I love) and the repositioning of the joystick. The camera itself is very slightly smaller, and a good bit lighter, but other than that the ergonomics are near identical. The buttons from the left side have been repositioned, but they weren't buttons you'd use while shooting anyway.

 

[rexbobcat]

omg like worst camera ever.

It's amazing how anyone ever survived in the history of ever without a D4 or 5DIII.

Canon's marketing is actually working just as I assume they wanted it to.

"WOAH, the 6D makes me want to vomit and then drown myself in bleach. Looks like I'm just going to have to save up for the 5DIII."
Or
"Finally, a simple full frame camera with good image quality without being overloaded with features."

I honestly don't understand what the problem is. I'll probably get one, because I freaking HATE the ergonomics of the 5D and the 5dII (although the Mark III is a bit better), and because the sensor is supposedly a bit better in terms of ISO and such. That's the thing. If the sensor was worse than the 5DIII then I'd be like "meh", but since it is apparently better, I can live with the awful, dreadfully awful performance in other areas, because hyperbole is easy and cheap on the internet.

Coming from the 60D, it should be a great step up, and when it comes to needing faster AF I'm just going to sell my 1DII and buy a Mark III.

Everybody is ALWAYS complaining. There are several people that I talk to are complaining about the D800 because it has too many megapixels. My god first world problems. Seriously.

I would like the features of the D600 to be included in the 6D, but they're not, so I'm not going to ***** about it.

If you hate the ergonomics on the 5DII, I don't see what you'd like better about this camera. The only real major differences are the Q button (which I love) and the repositioning of the joystick. The camera itself is very slightly smaller, and a good bit lighter, but other than that the ergonomics are near identical. The buttons from the left side have been repositioned, but they weren't buttons you'd use while shooting anyway.

I've held both, and it's smaller (like the 60D) and has the layout (like the 60D). The handling and feel are not nearly identical to me. It's more like a fancy 5DII vs. a fancy 60D. :/

But regardless, the sheer image quality of the 6D is pleasantly surprising and makes me happy that at least Canon didn't skimp on the meat of the camera.

 

[fjrabon]

omg like worst camera ever.

It's amazing how anyone ever survived in the history of ever without a D4 or 5DIII.

Canon's marketing is actually working just as I assume they wanted it to.

"WOAH, the 6D makes me want to vomit and then drown myself in bleach. Looks like I'm just going to have to save up for the 5DIII."
Or
"Finally, a simple full frame camera with good image quality without being overloaded with features."

I honestly don't understand what the problem is. I'll probably get one, because I freaking HATE the ergonomics of the 5D and the 5dII (although the Mark III is a bit better), and because the sensor is supposedly a bit better in terms of ISO and such. That's the thing. If the sensor was worse than the 5DIII then I'd be like "meh", but since it is apparently better, I can live with the awful, dreadfully awful performance in other areas, because hyperbole is easy and cheap on the internet.

Coming from the 60D, it should be a great step up, and when it comes to needing faster AF I'm just going to sell my 1DII and buy a Mark III.

Everybody is ALWAYS complaining. There are several people that I talk to are complaining about the D800 because it has too many megapixels. My god first world problems. Seriously.

I would like the features of the D600 to be included in the 6D, but they're not, so I'm not going to ***** about it.

If you hate the ergonomics on the 5DII, I don't see what you'd like better about this camera. The only real major differences are the Q button (which I love) and the repositioning of the joystick. The camera itself is very slightly smaller, and a good bit lighter, but other than that the ergonomics are near identical. The buttons from the left side have been repositioned, but they weren't buttons you'd use while shooting anyway.

I've held both, and it's smaller (like the 60D) and has the layout (like the 60D). The handling and feel are not nearly identical to me. It's more like a fancy 5DII vs. a fancy 60D. :/

But regardless, the sheer image quality of the 6D is pleasantly surprising and makes me happy that at least Canon didn't skimp on the meat of the camera.

I honestly can't tell the difference between its image quality and a 5DII. I guess maybe it measures better, but not in a real world applicable way, or at least that's what I found.

Like I said in the original post, i guess 60D owners would be happy with this upgrade. The other issue is that they're just getting ripped off comparatively. I CANNOT understand why this camera is $700 more than the D600, and $400 more than the 5DII.

I guess I just really wanted to love this camera and for us to change over to it before the studio really picks back up. maybe I'm being a bit unfair to it.

 

[sekhar]

6D actually beats 5D3 is some key areas. High ISO performance is unbelievable, quite a bit better than 5D3's - check out pretty much any comparison floating around. I've had a 6D for like 10 days, and I cannot believe the ISO numbers I can shoot at. Even 12,800 is usable. You didn't like focusing, but I've found it to be really fast and accurate, even in low light. I've read reports that 6D beats 5D3 in low light (speed wise). Even GPS can be really useful for travel/landscape IMO, and I've found that WiFi can be great if you use the phone for remote shooting. Video is pretty bad though (much worse in aliasing/moire compared to 5D3) - hopefully Canon will release a firmware fix.

 

[rexbobcat]

If you hate the ergonomics on the 5DII, I don't see what you'd like better about this camera. The only real major differences are the Q button (which I love) and the repositioning of the joystick. The camera itself is very slightly smaller, and a good bit lighter, but other than that the ergonomics are near identical. The buttons from the left side have been repositioned, but they weren't buttons you'd use while shooting anyway.

I've held both, and it's smaller (like the 60D) and has the layout (like the 60D). The handling and feel are not nearly identical to me. It's more like a fancy 5DII vs. a fancy 60D. :/

But regardless, the sheer image quality of the 6D is pleasantly surprising and makes me happy that at least Canon didn't skimp on the meat of the camera.

I honestly can't tell the difference between its image quality and a 5DII. I guess maybe it measures better, but not in a real world applicable way, or at least that's what I found.

Like I said in the original post, i guess 60D owners would be happy with this upgrade. The other issue is that they're just getting ripped off comparatively. I CANNOT understand why this camera is $700 more than the D600, and $400 more than the 5DII.

I guess I just really wanted to love this camera and for us to change over to it before the studio really picks back up. maybe I'm being a bit unfair to it.

$2099 is $600 more than the D600? O_O

I'm just going by stuff I've seen both online and while handling the camera at a local camera store.

Canon 6d v.s. 5d mark III lowlight testing

Canon 6D and 5DMk3 Noise Comparison for High-ISO Long Exposures

I've played with the camera and from looking at those samples and from seeing the 5DII files I have to think that you must have a very good 5DII if the 6D y'all are using is closer to it and than the 5DIII. And even DXO Mark rated it higher and as everyone knows they are the end-all-be-all so it MUST be true. lol

Are you sure you're not trying hard to not like anything about the camera? I'm only being half serious. When I am very disappointed in something I tend to want to despise even it's best qualities.

But in the end, there's nothing I can do about being comparatively ripped off, so I'm going to go with the flow instead of stressing over something I can't change. It's either a 5DIII or it's a 6D and light modifiers, or a new lens investment, or a 1D Mark III. To someone who doesn't have a lot of money, $700 more for a 5D Mark III is a lot of money.

Just like people are complaining about the D600 because it just wasn't as good as they wanted, but are also complaining about the D800 because it is too much camera. I was flabbergasted when I went to a Nikon forum and saw that they were ragging on the D600. I think that it's not the camera makers' faults as much as the market is just super spoiled.