Technical...artistic...of both, which are you?

[Chamelion 6]

I think of myself as the "artsy" type. Whay back when I was all caught up in the technical side of photography but looking back on it I don't think that obsession really led anywhere but frustration. I think it's important to be proficent enough to produce the images in your head; to get the camera to produce what you need to get where you want to be visually.

I think all to often there is a huge over emphasis on the technical side of things and that just leads to blah cookie cutter immagry. CC's tend to be, "Whites are blown, focus is soft, horizon isn't level..." Even compositional discussions wind up being a stale rehash of of the rules. If you only know the rules and compose every shot by them then you're not really "seeing." If you lay out 10 photos and 9 of the 10 are perfectly composed and exposed and the 10th is a little off and the composition is a bit skewed most people are going to be attracted to it and will often pick it as the most interesting or best. Why? Simply because it's different, it's flawed and people are drawn to that. The flaws make it interesting and approchable. That's not to say bad images are better, but rules are a means to an end.

If you wanna start producing art then you gotta learn to SEE it. Put the composition books away, forget the rules (at least for awhile) and go to a museum. Look at the art, just absorb it. Get photobooks by your favorite photogs and just absorb them. Just learn to see them. Enjoy them. All the rules are in those images and well as when and how to use them and when not to. Your brain will begin to make those connections and those shapes and forms will begin to imprint.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

If you wanna start producing art then you gotta learn to SEE it. Put the composition books away, forget the rules (at least for awhile) and to to a museum. Look at the art, just absorb it. Get photobooks by your favorite photogs and just absorb them. Just learn to see them. Enjoy them. All the rules are in those images and well as when and how to use them and when not to. Your brain will begin to make those connections and those shapes and forms will begin to imprint.

Why put the books that explain composition away? You need to know what you are looking for to be able to find it!!!!

 

[Chamelion 6]

If you wanna start producing art then you gotta learn to SEE it. Put the composition books away, forget the rules (at least for awhile) and to to a museum. Look at the art, just absorb it. Get photobooks by your favorite photogs and just absorb them. Just learn to see them. Enjoy them. All the rules are in those images and well as when and how to use them and when not to. Your brain will begin to make those connections and those shapes and forms will begin to imprint.

Why put the books that explain composition away? You need to know what you are looking for to be able to find it!!!!

Cause a picture is worth a 1000 books full of words.

I honestly believe until you train your eye all those grids and formulas do more harm than good. They become a crutch and not real composition. and I honestly believe the only way to learn to see it is to spend time looking at it. You don't need to learn all those formulas to understand composition.

You brought up learning a foreign language and that was an excellent analogy... If you always have to translate it to your native language you'll never learn to speak it. You learn it by immersing yourself to the point you begin to think in that language. You don't need a class or a book of rules. Move to Paris, you'll be speaking as well as a first year French student within a month.

You wanna learn art, immerse yourself in it.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

You wanna learn art, immerse yourself in it.

yup this is exactly how art is taught in schools

:roll:

 

[Chamelion 6]

You wanna learn art, immerse yourself in it.

yup this is exactly how art is taught in schools

:roll:

Good ones... Not all of them. Photography, not so much.

People spout rules and lots of verbage about technical stuff and most of it misses the point.

When was the last time there was a real discussion here about composition, a critique that wasn't just a regurgitation of the rule of thirds... That's not composition.

I'm talking about really digging in to an image and tryuing to understand what it's trying to say and how it says it. You don't get that out of rules... Rules are the poor man's substitute for vision.

 

[crimbfighter]

Definitely a lot of good suggestions. I think I might be doomed, honestly. Well, to a certain extent anyway... I agree with Bitter a lot in that you're probably born with it or you're not. And I don't think I was born with it. I mean, I'm sure I have some artistic ability that could be nurtured, but it must be waaaay repressed . I wonder if it would help to just find a friend in the art community and see if they can rub off on me a little. Figuratively speaking... :er:

It kinda sucks, because I have always been able to look at a mechanical process, lets say an engine for example, and I could almost instantly conceptualize and understand every mechanical process that is taking place within. Give me a set of drafting tools and paper, and I can even reproduce blueprints for it. Probably why I was a good tool & die maker... But give me a pencil and a blank piece of paper, and about all I can draw is a hangman...

 

[crimbfighter]

You can't be the guy who rolls his eyes at poetry or abstract art because you think it is pretentious.

Crap :er:

Ha ha, just kidding! I've tried to branch out and absorb some of that stuff, but I just end up sitting there not getting it... probably just need to try more.

I'm w/ Bitter a little w/ this. I see the creativity that goes into art as a talent. I can play basketball. I can be taught the ins and outs but I will never be Michael Jordan. You can teach someone what looks good in a photo but they will only be able to COPY what they have been shown. Not branch out and discover their own idea. There is always the exception but most people that don't have the eye have a hard time finding it.

Def +1

Creativity is a difficult thing to teach.

Creativity is a thought process.

Excellent piont


A lot of people mentioned that they've been drawing since they were kids, and that seems like a constant among those who are artistic. Something that I really haven't done.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

You wanna learn art, immerse yourself in it.

yup this is exactly how art is taught in schools

:roll:

Good ones... Not all of them. Photography, not so much.

People spout rules and lots of verbage about technical stuff and most of it misses the point.

When was the last time there was a real discussion here about composition, a critique that wasn't just a regurgitation of the rule of thirds... That's not composition.

I'm talking about really digging in to an image and tryuing to understand what it's trying to say and how it says it. You don't get that out of rules... Rules are the poor man's substitute for vision.

Your right. **** 'em. Let them figure it out for themselves.




Now you're talking about really digging into an image? HERE, on a beginners forum where people are looking for a leg up to get better? Yeah, just tell 'em to look at pictures and figure it out for themselves.

 

[Chamelion 6]

Definitely a lot of good suggestions. I think I might be doomed, honestly. Well, to a certain extent anyway... I agree with Bitter a lot in that you're probably born with it or you're not. And I don't think I was born with it. I mean, I'm sure I have some artistic ability that could be nurtured, but it must be waaaay repressed . I wonder if it would help to just find a friend in the art community and see if they can rub off on me a little. Figuratively speaking... :er:

It kinda sucks, because I have always been able to look at a mechanical process, lets say an engine for example, and I could almost instantly conceptualize and understand every mechanical process that is taking place within. Give me a set of drafting tools and paper, and I can even reproduce blueprints for it. Probably why I was a good tool & die maker... But give me a pencil and a blank piece of paper, and about all I can draw is a hangman...

Sorry, I personally don't buy it. There is nothing special about being artistic, you just have to get in the right mindset. That's why I hate all those rules, they're too mechanical. They boil everything down to the least common denominator. Art isn't supposed to be so precise or black and white. It's about expression. If you have somethng to say you have everything you need to make art. It's all about figuring out how to say it.

That's why I keep harping on learning to see art and composition. Learning to write involves learning to read... Learning to play music involves learning to listen to it... Simply learn to appreciate photography without having to break it down and your artistic side will start to bubble up. I promise...

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

You're contradicting yourself from our last argument. :lmao:


With that, I'm done.

 

[Chamelion 6]

yup this is exactly how art is taught in schools

:roll:

Good ones... Not all of them. Photography, not so much.

People spout rules and lots of verbage about technical stuff and most of it misses the point.

When was the last time there was a real discussion here about composition, a critique that wasn't just a regurgitation of the rule of thirds... That's not composition.

I'm talking about really digging in to an image and tryuing to understand what it's trying to say and how it says it. You don't get that out of rules... Rules are the poor man's substitute for vision.

Your right. **** 'em. Let them figure it out for themselves.




Now you're talking about really digging into an image? HERE, on a beginners forum where people are looking for a leg up to get better? Yeah, just tell 'em to look at pictures and figure it out for themselves.

Is that what I said? I was thinking an open discussion on line and form, light and dark might help everyone. Most beginners understand far more than they realize, they just don't realize it. Just looking at and image and talking about it brings that out.

Is "draw a tic-tac-toe grid on your picture and line **** up on the lines," particularly educational????

Most beginners know what they like. They are attracted to what they want to do, they don't need to be "educated" on how to admire what they see. If anything they mostly just need to get past the "blank page" syndrom and start trying to produce what they see in their head.

The reality is that there is no right way to do this stuff, and it's wrong only if it fails to communicate what the artist wants to say. Not because the whites are blown or the focus is soft...

Sometimes coloring outside the lines is the point!

 

[Chamelion 6]

You're contradicting yourself from our last argument. :lmao:


With that, I'm done.

What contradiction? Bottom line then and now. Look at photos, lots of them. Look at the stuff you like and internalize it.

Sorry man, but I appreciate these discussions... Your posts remind me of my old Photojournalism teacher. He liked things neat and by the book. I drove him nuts. I followed every rule with "why?"

I colored outside the lines a lot, he wasn't a "color outside the lines" kind of instructor. I was fond of asking him "what makes this one better than that one?" He hated that question cause it always turned to a debate. I don't think he was too unhappy when I moved on.

We just come at this thing from opposite directions.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

The theories of composition are a foundation to be built upon by the individual. The talented individual can learn them in the beginning and build upon them. The less talented will never move beyond them.

You can give a person the tools needed to succeed, or you can let them figure it out for themselves. Which way will take far longer?

In the future, every time you tell some one to put the books away, I will simply respond with "that is the slowest way to learn, speed up the process by reading the books."



To "color outside the lines" you must first know the lines exist.

 

[bentcountershaft]

Composition rules are kind of like music theory in a way. Sometimes the wrong note is the right note. However if you don't understand theory the only way you're going to find that wrong note is by accident. Good accidents happen but they are few and far between.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

Bent, I don't call them rules. I call them theories, and that is an important distinction.