The death of C&C

[Dean_Gretsch]

Speaking as a novice and never ever wanting to be more than a hobbyist, I can say thanks to Zulu for starting this thread. When I first started here, there were a couple members who only commented if critical of my work, or my opinion of another's work. I always thought they were egotistical and bullying. One rarely posts anymore and the other has at least quit commenting on my photos. Critique is essential if we expect to improve. It's easy to get into a habit of repetition and stagnancy. Pointing out the good in a photo's composition, the poster's edits or any facet of a photograph can be helpful as much as the negatives too. Let's not forget that. I have noticed most have their ways set in stone and probably aren't going to change. Being a hobbyist, I know my comments are not going to help anyone improve, but if I like a photo for whatever reason, I have to at least acknowledge it. If some members were a doctor, they'd definitely need some training on their bedside manner.

 

[smoke665]

I would agree with @SquarePeg that you don't have to be a jerk about critique. Critique to be helpful doesn't have to be rude or obnoxious. The dictionary defines Critique as "a detailed analysis and assessment of something" On comments, newbies especially, critique should always incorporate the positive as well as the negative, something that doesn't seem to happen much.

I know others have posted similar guidance on critique, but for those that haven't seen it, Lightstalker has a good article on the subject Learn the Skill of Critiquing Photographs With These 5 Tips . I don't think anyone goes in without the intent of helping, but few ever follow up with the why, of the their comments? You see something negative, explain why so the poster understands your thought process, is it really a negative or is it the third rule coming into play. The third rule speaks to the comment by @zombiesniper it's very difficult to keep personal bias out of a critique, but we should at least try, or at the least specify that it is a personal opinion so as to not confuse. The fourth one don't try to change the posters vision to fit your own, another really tough one with a fine line between helpful critique and inserting your own bias. Finally the fifth is a common problem - the short positive or negative. Saying "I like it" or "I don't like this" doesn't really help. If you want to take the time to comment it really should have some substance to it - What do you like about it, what don't you like? It doesn't have to be a thesis but at least throw them a bone.

 

[Overread]

Sometimes if you want it you've got to give it too. Furthermore giving your own critique is both a good way to build community bridges with others and also to start to build your own visual eye as you give critique on the works of others and it makes you look at things differently. Even if you are wrong and might get corrected later it is still a good exercise to partake in.

Also I find people are more willing to give critique if you provide your own feedback on yourp hoto when posting. Putting up details like settings, equipment, your thoughts etc... If you just dump a photo and run then it doesn't show that you are willing to put in the effort. Put down a photo, put down the details and settings; put down your thoughts; put down your questions. Put the legwork in to start with and you are MUCH more likely to get feedback

Check the two threads linked in my signature for more info.

 

[Original katomi]

Reading the posts here has made me realise that I am guilty of putting short two or three word comments.
I will have to watch that in future.
Mixed feelings about putting in the info about images I post.
Some are just for fun so don’t need all how I did this
Others if I am trying out a new, at least to me, idea I will post info so that others can post comments on the technical side as well as CC
But that’s just me, and as my photography is out of the box most of the time and when I belonged to a camera club I started a whole new category.. the Marmite effect
You know how it goes you love it or hate it.

 

[Space Face]

I haven't read every post in this thread so I may be repeating what's been said already.

However, as I've said on here before several times, it's my view that as far as I know Forum rules wise, unless NO crit is specifically requested (ie just for fun etc) then every photograph is open to it.

I agree with the sentiment that 'nice pic' 'good photo' blah blah blah is a waste of everybody's time. Fine for those who want to boost their post count without saying anything and it's obvious when it happens. Having a mega post count does not make one an more informed authority on any subject.

When I comment on a photo and I like it, I tend to say why I like it. Composition, framing, detail, subject matter etc etc. I am guilty of not always saying I don't like a photo and giving advice on how I think it could be improved. This is because over the years I've come to realize that people in general don't like being told that their work is substandard, poor or needs improvement when on a lot of occasions it is blatantly obvious it's a rubbish picture.

The reason for this, as has been touched on already, is the fact that you can put any old crap photo on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and the like and everyone will 'like' it thus lending people to believe their shoddy work is acceptable.

There are a few basic rules on photography, which if followed in general terms, will instantly improve work. You'll always get some nugget who'll pipe in with 'oh, rules are made to be broken''. Utter garbage, rules and guidelines are made to be adhered to or followed for a reason. I'm not saying rules and guidelines CAN'T be broken, bent, used differently, interpreted differently but they are there to give us the ground zero from which to base our photographic skills on.

Hey ho, just my tuppence worth (again)

 

[zulu42]

I found that most people just post CC welcome. To me that reads "I'm to damn lazy to bother assessing my own work and want you to go through and walk me by the hand to take a good picture".

Excellent point. People probably would feel much more comfortable posting critique if it was specifically requested ie: "which crop looks better" or "do the blown highlights detract from this image?"
If I really want critique I could get more by asking properly.

Lastly, some people should not be critiquing anything since they are only posting opinion based critiques which are useless

I disagree with this. Any critique could be considered opinion based. Blown highlights are a verifiable fact, but whether it detracts from a photo is only opinion.

Also I find people are more willing to give critique if you provide your own feedback on yourp hoto when posting. Putting up details like settings, equipment, your thoughts etc... If you just dump a photo and run then it doesn't show that you are willing to put in the effort. Put down a photo, put down the details and settings; put down your thoughts; put down your questions. Put the legwork in to start with and you are MUCH more likely to get feedback

Yes. I should follow this advice.

 

[Designer]

Thanks for reading, and feel free to C&C this post!

We're all different, so there's that. We have here:

1. People who don't know how to ask for C&C. (there is a thread of instruction for that)
2. People who, when they receive a critique, don't know how to accept it and learn from it.
3. People who do offer their critique, but seemingly don't understand the principles of art.
4. People who post once and never come back to read their thread.

So it's not as friendly and helpful on here as it could be.

 

[zulu42]

I should probably be honest enough to admit that I also miss reading threads where people receive critical comments and then get bent out of shape. It can be quite entertaining.

 

[PJM]

Other have already covered most of my thoughts in depth but I will at least chime in and say I would like to see more critique beyond the "nice shot". I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've gotten critique even when I asked for it.

As a relative newbie still I'm not always comfortable critiquing someone else's photo. If I like a photo I do try to explain what I like about it. If there are things I don't like about it I usually don't say anything, my bad perhaps. I will check out the tips on critiquing mentioned earlier. And if more people provided constructive criticism we newbies could learn from that and maybe become more comfortable at providing some of our own.

 

[Space Face]

Thanks for reading, and feel free to C&C this post!

We're all different, so there's that. We have here:

1. People who don't know how to ask for C&C. (there is a thread of instruction for that)
2. People who, when they receive a critique, don't know how to accept it and learn from it.
3. People who do offer their critique, but seemingly don't understand the principles of art.
4. People who post once and never come back to read their thread.

So it's not as friendly and helpful on here as it could be.

I'll add another to that if I may.

People who post their photographs and only return to see the comments made on their thread and rarely if ever comment on other threads outside their own. Very narcissistic imo.

 

[SquarePeg]

Sometimes if you want it you've got to give it too. Furthermore giving your own critique is both a good way to build community bridges with others and also to start to build your own visual eye as you give critique on the works of others and it makes you look at things differently. Even if you are wrong and might get corrected later it is still a good exercise to partake in.

Also I find people are more willing to give critique if you provide your own feedback on yourp hoto when posting. Putting up details like settings, equipment, your thoughts etc... If you just dump a photo and run then it doesn't show that you are willing to put in the effort. Put down a photo, put down the details and settings; put down your thoughts; put down your questions. Put the legwork in to start with and you are MUCH more likely to get feedback

Check the two threads linked in my signature for more info.

This touches on another very valid point - you get back what you put in, as with most everything in life! If you post photos all the time but you never bother to critique or comment on anyone else’s photos, don’t get bent out of shape if you don’t receive a lot of critique or comments from people.

I know that I tend to open threads and comment more on threads from people who are active in the forum. Unless it’s somebody brand new in which case they wouldn’t have any history and I open out of curiosity. But if you just drop in here once a month and throw a couple photos up and never participate in any discussion or never make any comments or critiques of anyone else’s photos or offer any contribution to the community, then you’re not really participating and I am much less likely to comment or offer anything on one of your threads.

Also, I don’t know anything about wildlife photos so rarely comment other than a kudos on what I think is a very interesting shot. And as for “street”, I don’t get it and never will so I don’t even open those threads any more...

 

[Overread]

As a relative newbie still I'm not always comfortable critiquing someone else's photo. If I like a photo I do try to explain what I like about it. If there are things I don't like about it I usually don't say anything, my bad perhaps. I will check out the tips on critiquing mentioned earlier. And if more people provided constructive criticism we newbies could learn from that and maybe become more comfortable at providing some of our own.

In my experiences the more I put into it the more I got out from others. At the same time if you do post up the full details of your shots and give your own commentary then that exercise alone is already helping you. So even if you don't get a single reply, you still benefit.




When giving I find those who question/disagree/pushback aren't a problem for me. Personally I find it far worse when they say nothing at all. Either not even a thanks, but more so when you ask them questions specifically to help and provide the critique they've asked for and they never reply. When you ask even basic things like what camera they used (critique for a point and shoot differs to a DSLR etc...) and they don't get back.

The lack of caring is FAR more debilitating to me than someone who clearly has passion, even if its missguided or if they are getting the wrong end of the stick. At least the latter group has energy and passion for what they are doing.

 

[Derrel]

I have been interested in photography for about 45 years. I am usually fairly well aware of what is right or wrong with a photo, either one taken by me call or one submitted by someone else. I myself do not feel that critique helps all that much. Instead I think that education helps more. If you wish to learn photography come up then bite a few books about photography, and read and study them. For beginners I think that oftentimes critique comes off as empty criticism, unless it is given in a most kid gloves type of fashion, which not that many people do. As in all things, your mileage may vary.

 

[terri]

Everyone is making valid points here. We all are interested in making TPF more informative and helpful, especially to novices. Of course, as Smoke touched on, as one gets more skill and is comfortable with their own style, getting feedback may not seem as crucial. But it all has a certain value, which is why no one ever really wants to see it tiptoed around, or dropped completely as too much trouble.

The moderating team is kicking around some scenarios that might be helpful. Please keep the discussion going, and let us know what you would specifically like to see, or NOT like to see, in a Critique forum.

Such as: Information on technical items (Lens, ISO, etc.)?

A statement or specific question from the poster on what they're trying to achieve with their image? (A lot of times, this can guide the viewer as to how to respond.)

The overall intent would be to make a C&C forum as useful to anyone who wants C&C, as well as getting enough information from that member who offers up something for it.

 

[smoke665]

let us know what you would specifically like to see, or NOT like to see, in a Critique forum.

Not sure if it's possible with your software, but another site I frequent, has a drop down box next to the title for your post, that includes - Just for Fun, Go Easy On Me, Full Critique, and NSFW so when the thread posts others know right away what level of comment they're looking for. It seems to work well for them, maybe something similar for TPF

Edit: Not having the NSFW separated is a little odd, but it is nice to know what level of critique the poster is looking for. I know I and others have used the Go Easy label when just experimenting with ideas and looking for inspiration.